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Star Wars

Open the pod bay doors, Hnau!

Postby Coyote Goodfellow » 09 Jun 2008, 16:49

Stanley wrote
And even the form of the statement "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" seems to be a bit over the top. More powerful than Vader can possibly imagine? I bet he could imagine pretty powerful things -- death stars, thousands of battle ships, legions of soldiers, etc. Could Obi wan summon powers of galactic size, perhaps? Even if he could, this was still "imaginable" to Darth Vader, however unlikely it might be.

And yet it turns out that the line was perfectly true. Obi wan "became" literally more powerful than Vader could possilby imagine (at the time), not because he could summon powers greater than Vader could imagine, but because Vader was on the "other side" and could not conceive of the idea that it would be he, Vader himself, that would be the one to overturn the emperor and toss him into the inferno.


Wow! I always took it as just being about the semi-resurrection which allows him to guide Luke to destroy the death star. But the chain of casuality you trace is a very powerful image. I always thought those words significant, but I never really thought about how prophetic. It's not just Ben's training of course, it's also Yoda's--but its because Ben can direct Luke to Dagoba--that he can draw on all kinds of forces (even those within Anakin himself) of which Vader is ignorant.

btw which do you think would be a better commentary on Vader's ignorance: "if Vader had understood the true meaning of sacrifice, he would have interpreted Ben's words differently..." or "if Vader could have seen beyond the ways of the Sith, to the emptiness and stillness before the dark side was divided from the light..."
"I don't care if it is wrong," said one of the moles. "I'd do it again."
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Postby splashen » 09 Jun 2008, 18:38

Yes, StarWars truly was/is a powerful, religious epic. Unfortunately, George Lucas himself, was to blinded by greed & pride, to concentrate on continuing in a powerfully epic way, when he wrote the Phantom Menace. Because of this, he gave a black eye to his whole creation, when he could have gone down in history, right along the likes of CS Lewis or JRR Tolkien.
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The Force 101

Postby alcazal » 11 Jun 2008, 18:47

btw which do you think would be a better commentary on Vader's ignorance: "if Vader had understood the true meaning of sacrifice, he would have interpreted Ben's words differently..." or "if Vader could have seen beyond the ways of the Sith, to the emptiness and stillness before the dark side was divided from the light..."


Coyote Goodfellow (or anyone else who cares to comment),

That second sentence you have about 'the emptiness and stillness before the dark side was divided from the light' intrigues me. Is that from something or is it the result of your own thinking? Is there some history to the force where the Sith were not always evil? Or am I just way off base here?

Thanks.

Al
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Re: The Force 101

Postby Stanley Anderson » 11 Jun 2008, 19:40

alcazal wrote:
btw which do you think would be a better commentary on Vader's ignorance: "if Vader had understood the true meaning of sacrifice, he would have interpreted Ben's words differently..." or "if Vader could have seen beyond the ways of the Sith, to the emptiness and stillness before the dark side was divided from the light..."


Coyote Goodfellow (or anyone else who cares to comment),

That second sentence you have about 'the emptiness and stillness before the dark side was divided from the light' intrigues me. Is that from something or is it the result of your own thinking? Is there some history to the force where the Sith were not always evil? Or am I just way off base here?

Thanks.

Al


CG was taking off on my oft repeated rant about the difference between Aslan's description of the Deeper Magic from Before the Dawn of Time in the book of the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, and the corresponding line in the movie version which deleted the whole concept of the Deeper Magic in lieu of Adamson's watering down of the Atonement and ironic attempt to make Lewis' description have less "exposition" (I say ironic and put "exposition" in quotes, because Adamson's version with its dry phrases "true meaning" and "interpreted" was far blander exposition than Lewis' wonderfully rich imagery).

And your question simply verifies this observation since you are intrigued by the CG's second one -- ie the one that parodied Lewis' version. CG's first one was parodying the horrendously dry Adamson version from the movie.

for reference, here are the originals. First the line from the movie:

Susan: "But we saw the knife, the Which?"

Aslan: "If the Which knew the true meaning of sacrifice, she might have interpreted the Deep Magic differently: that when a willing victim who has committed no treachery is killed in a traitor's stead, the Stone Table will crack, and even death itself would turn backwards."


Yuck. And here is the passage from the book:

"But what does it all mean?" asked Susan when there were somewhat calmer.

"It means," said Aslan, "that though the Witch knew the Deep magic, there is a magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of time. But if she could have looked a little further back, into the stillness and the darkness before Time dawned, she would have read there a different incantation. She would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backward."


'nuff said:-)
--Stanley
…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby archenland_knight » 23 Aug 2010, 06:02

Stanley Anderson wrote:What I am referring to is connected with the line in the first movie where Darth Vader and Obi are fighting and Obi says "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine".


I had not really given much thought to that line until the "Heir To The Empire" trilogy written by Timothy Zahn came out and was later made into a graphic novel series. The books take place after the Battle of Endor. The series opens with Leia married to Han, and Luke Leia and Han working to build a New Republic.

Of course, when watching the Episode VI at the end, you may have wondered, "Okay ... Vader's dead ... the Emperor's Dead ... the Death Star is Destroyed ... but there's a whole Imperial Fleet out here that is still perfectly capable of continuing to fight. Sure they've had some set backs, but won't someone take command and lead the fleet against the rebels? I mean, it's not like the Rebels took Corruscant!"

Well, Zahn's books kind of explain that. They also explain what Obi-Wan meant by "more powerful than you can possibly imagine".

Spoiler:
Now I am operating on memories over 10 years old at this point, so bear with me. First, I wasn't crazy about the books. I actually preferred the comic book versions. But both turned the Jedi into a cross between Middle Earth wizards and Star Trek "Q". The version of Luke put forth in these books could probably have defeated Gandalf in a fight. This was before the "prequel" movies came out, so there was no nonsense about "midiclhorians".

In either the novels or the books, the basic story is that once the Emperor died, the Imperial fleet fell apart. They did not realize that the Emperor had basically been controlling and co-ordinating their fighting for years. They had essentially lost the ability to think for themselves. The much smaller Rebel force was able to route the Imperial Fleet because the Imperials were completely confused. Unable to co-ordinate a response, the Fleet was smashed.

However, there was one "Grand Admiral" who was not at the Battle of Endor, Grand Admiral Thrawn. He was the only non-human Grand Admiral in the Empire, and it was implied that this had always been an obstacle to him in his career. The Emperor basically had not wanted him at Endor, so he and his fairly sizable force had not been there.

Always kept in remote parts of the Empire, Thrawn's forces had not been as tightly controlled by the Emperor as other Imperial troops. Moreover, Thrawn is no "weak minded fool", and certainly is not a clone, and has thus never fallen under the Emperor's influence. Thrawn deliberate undertakes measures to help his own forces continue to develop their own discipline without relying on a dark jedi behind the scenes. (The books never use the word "Sith" that I can remember.) He does manage to track down and recruit a dark Jedi to use in emergencies, but prefers to fight without him when possible.

Thrawn takes it upon himself to gather up the surviving Imperial ships, shoring up those worlds still under Imperial control, and rebuilding the Empire. A brilliant tactician, and not having the force to rely upon, he proves himself to be superior in strategic thinking to Vader, and perhaps even the Emperor.

Now, again, it's been a while since I read these. But here's the climax as best I can remember.

Turns out ... the Emperor isn't actually dead. (Did you see that one coming?) Oh, he died. Sure. He's just not dead. Turns out, he has died more than once before. You see, that body he was living in when you saw him in RotJ was already a replacement body ... a clone body. And clone bodies don't do well with exposure to the force, especially the dark side of the force. Sooner or later, you have to replace the silly thing.

The Emperor was capable of leaving his body (you saw the big flash of energy rush past Vader when Vader threw him over the side in RotJ) and travelling to where the clones were kept and entering a new one. He kept a number of them ready to be used just in case something like this should happen.

So the Emperor goes back to trying to turn Luke. And of course they confront each other again.

And Luke realizes that he simply can't beat the Emperor. Even if he could kill the Emperor ... and he can't ... the Emperor would just come back ... and come back ... and come back.

It is then that a sort of revelation happens. Everything that Yoda tried to teach Luke ... everything that Ben tried to teach Luke ... and Luke remembers Ben saying, "If you strike me down, I shall grow more powerful than you can possibly imagine ... ". Luke remembers how Ben and Yoda and even Anakin became "one with the Force".

And so ... Luke does it to. I'm thinking he knew Ben was helping, but that may not be accurate. But, confronting the Emperor, he willing leaves his body and joins the force. And then, he feels Leia, who is being held hostage, joining him as well, and the Jedi twins in her womb ... and together with the other Jedi who have joined the force, they envelop the Emperor's essence.

And crush it. They destroy his soul. They obliterate his very being and spirit. The Emperor ceases to exist, even as a part of the force.

I found that creepy in the extreme. My Christian sensibilities were all offended. I'm not sure that any religion would find that acceptable.

But anyway, in that series of books, this is what Ben meant by "more powerful than you can possibly imagine". Becoming one with the Force and being able to do, essentially, anything.


However, I'm not sure if Zahn's books are considered "cannon" in the Star Wars universe. Lucas Films has this set of rules that govern what is considered "cannon" in the Star Wars Universe and what is not ... and what level of cannon it is. I am not sure where these books fall.

Sadly, The Star Wars Holiday Special actually is considered "c-cannon", which I think is a fairly high level of cannon. It was made for TV and aired only once. It was released before "Empire Strikes Back" and is, I believe, the first appearance of Boba Fett.

Yes ... it's real. Horrible, isn't it?
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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