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The Abolition of Man

Comprising most of Lewis' writings.
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The Abolition of Man

Postby Zan » June 24th, 2005, 6:44 pm

Ok... I am really having trouble with this one. I usually don't have trouble reading Lewis' work. I go through his stuff as if I wrote them myself, thats how talented the man is. But, this one is giving me a lot of trouble. For those who have read it, I was wondering if maybe you could just sum it up for me? What did you get out of it? I haven't finished it just yet, but, maybe it will get me in that mindset. Thanks!
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"I believe in God like I believe in the sun, not because I can see it, but because of it all things are seen." -- C.S. Lewis

"... the more doors you go out of, the farther you get in!" -- George MacDonald, Lilith
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Re: The Abolition of Man

Postby Guest » June 27th, 2005, 4:52 am

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Re: The Abolition of Man

Postby Guest » June 29th, 2005, 10:30 am

Zan,

Which parts of the book are you having problems with?
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Re: The Abolition of Man

Postby Zan » June 30th, 2005, 3:12 am

Its kind of hard to pinpoint the exact locations. There are parts of his chapters that I undertand just fine, but then, there are some other parts where I am completely lost. I decided to put it down for now and come back to it later. I've come to realize that you need to be in a certain mindset when reading these sort of books, and I'm just not in the "Abolition of Man" mindset right now.

Instead I chose to start The Seeing Eye which seems to be serving me better. Never really had any trouble with reading Lewis, but the Abolition of Man is giving me a run for my money. When I pick it up again, I'll be sure to mark the sections that give me trouble so I can post them here for discussion. Thanks though!
Zan


"I believe in God like I believe in the sun, not because I can see it, but because of it all things are seen." -- C.S. Lewis

"... the more doors you go out of, the farther you get in!" -- George MacDonald, Lilith
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Re: The Abolition of Man

Postby postodave » July 11th, 2005, 1:46 pm

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yeah...

Postby Guest » July 11th, 2005, 4:46 pm

Dave - great post. Like others, I have started A.O.M. about 20 times and have yet to finish it. The only other book of his that I have had real trouble finishing was That Hideous Strength. Anyways, I think you hit the nail on the head. Lewis' defence of the Law of Nature can be found in several of his works (Mere Christianity, Problem of Pain, etc.) - probably stemming from his path to conversion (that same mysterious, perseverant "joy"), as recorded in Surprised By Joy.

Yay,
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Re: yeah...

Postby Zan » July 11th, 2005, 6:19 pm

Zan


"I believe in God like I believe in the sun, not because I can see it, but because of it all things are seen." -- C.S. Lewis

"... the more doors you go out of, the farther you get in!" -- George MacDonald, Lilith
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Re: yeah...

Postby postodave » July 13th, 2005, 1:53 pm

It's now occured to me that I do have another criticism of the book, and of That Hideous Strength ,which covers much of the same ground, and it's to do with Lewis's attitude to modern science. He sees the objective attitude which science encourages as potentially destructive. eg to disect a corpse one has to overcome a fundamental revulsion and so loses a little of ones humanity. In so saying I think he mistakenly identifies Christian and pagan attitudes with each other, seeing both as 'traditional'. It could be argued (and is by for example Rodney Starkey in For the Glory of God) that it was precisely because Christianity demystified nature that people were able to overcome these taboos and that this made scientific, specifically medical, progress possible. So I think perhaps Lewis is romanticising paganism a bit at this point. But as A. N. Wilson points out in this sense Lewis like Tolkien anticipates the whole modern ecopagan thing.

By the way did you know that B. F. skinner quotes from The Abolition of Man in Beyond Freedom and Dignity It was Lewis's title that prompted Skinner to say 'to man qua man we readilly say good ridance!'
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Re: The Abolition of Man

Postby veneklasen » July 13th, 2005, 3:17 pm

I did not understand AOM the first couple of times that I read it in my late teens and twenties. I kept picking it up and finally in my mid 30's I got it.
The reason why I think that young people don't initially get it is because they have been raised in the educational system that Lewis is indicting. And just as a fish doesn't know it is wet until it gets out of the water, victims of the post modern education system don't realize how their moral constructs have been corrupted until they take the painful steps to extricate themselves from postmodernism and reconstruct their moral understandings.

That being said AOM is Lewis's favorite book. (Letters to Malcom) and is a worthy read at any age. I am now in my mid 40's and have spent the last decade immersed in Eastern Christianity and upon rereading AOM I am reading it with even deeper understandings.

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Re: The Abolition of Man

Postby postodave » July 14th, 2005, 4:06 pm

I think the point about strugling to understand AOM because of having been raised in the education system Lewis is indicting is a good one. I too remember struggling with AOM on first reading and then in my mid twenties having a quantum leap to understanding. Reading Francis Schaeffer at the same time was a big help, since he covers some of the same ground. The next question would be do we really need to return to the kind of classics based education Lewis experienced and wanted to propagate. Can we integrate a more explorative approach with a recognition of objective values or norms? A book I found very useful on this is Teenagers: why do they do that? by Nick Pollard. He looks at the destructive impact of a critical approach when it is combined with a denial of the possibility of finding truth.

On a slightly different tack since the last contributor to this thread mentioned Eastern Christianity; one Christian writer who seems on the face of it to take a different approach to Lewis is Berdyayev who says that the defining feature of human beings is the capacity to create values; any thoughts on that? Is he really differing from Lewis or am I misreading him?
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Re: The Abolition of Man

Postby Solomons Song » July 18th, 2005, 4:30 pm

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re: The Abolition of Man

Postby MikeoftheLollards » November 24th, 2005, 2:58 am

Speaking of people in their mid-20s reading AOM I just did that last night (and I didnt become a member of this forum until...oh 20 mins ago). For some reason I became virutally obsessed and I read the whole book last night (I had tried to do this on a few other occasions but never got past chapter one). I think my upbringing in school systems like Lewis talks about made this very relavant for me. I deal with this a lot (still being in school will do that to you) and his message really hit home, one of my very favorite books of his I have read. In my estimation he puts up a great argument against relativism that is still a valid argument today, but perhaps that is just me. Either way I found useful as I now must wrestle with this issue quite frequently.

I am still quite confused about one thing. In the opening chapter of the book (even in the first few lines) he talks about the story of Coleridge and the waterfall and the words sublime and pretty. Im sure you remember. Lewis argues that to say this is sublime is to really saying I have sublime feelings, as Gaius et al would have us think. Lewis flips this on its ear by stating if we really said that we would really be saying the opposite of what we meant or thought. We really have feelings of veneration. I dont have the text with me, so I apologize that this is so scatterbrained a post. Basically Lewis says that this whole line of reasoning is illogical because we would be saying exactly the opposite of what we meant. I dont hear understand how he makes that leap. Perhaps my brain is switched off and I need some more coffee. Im sure his argument makes sense, I just can't quite grasp that connection. Can anyone help? I would appreciate it. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!
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re: The Abolition of Man

Postby kbrowne » November 24th, 2005, 1:02 pm

MikeoftheLollards,

Gaius and Titius say that when the tourist applied the word ‘sublime’ to the waterfall he was not saying anything about the waterfall; he was really describing his own feelings. He had those feelings that make you describe whatever you are thinking about as ‘sublime’. That would mean that whenever you describe anything as sublime you mean that you have the feelings that the tourist had when looking at the waterfall.

Now if you say ‘I have sublime feelings’ you are describing your own feelings as sublime. That means that you feel, when thinking about your feelings, the same things that the tourist felt when looking at the waterfall. Just as he projected the quality of sublimity onto the waterfall (in Gaius’ and Titius’ view) so you would be projecting the quality of sublimity onto your own feelings. Your own feelings seem to you to be sublime, just as the waterfall seemed sublime to the tourist.

Lewis is saying that when we think something is sublime we do not have feelings that seem to us to be sublime. Rather, we have feelings that seem to us to be humble feelings, feelings of veneration. Therefore, even if we accept Gaius’ and Titius’ view, we should not say, as they do, ‘I have sublime feelings’, although ‘I have feelings associated in my mind with the word “Sublime”, which they also say, would, I suppose, be all right.

As Lewis says it is a minor point, although perhaps it shows that Gaius and Titius were a bit careless.

I hope this helps.
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re: The Abolition of Man

Postby Shasta » November 24th, 2005, 6:27 pm

Hey Mike. If you enjoyed AOM you might also enjoy Peter Kreeft's "A Refutation of Moral Relativism". It is along the same lines as Lewis regarding objective values and the impact of their erosion. If you enjoy it you can also download an mp3 version of the book (for free) from his website: Peterkreeft.com. Hope you enjoy it!
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re: The Abolition of Man

Postby MikeoftheLollards » November 25th, 2005, 5:55 pm

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