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Discussion: Mere Christianity

Comprising most of Lewis' writings.
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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » July 8th, 2006, 11:52 pm

Being enjoyable is not the same thing as being good. Psychopaths don't do things because they're good simply because they don't know what "good" is. The best they can do is to do things that are fit (which is also not the same as good). In order to know what good is you have to have the experience of good and that's forever denied a psychopath (unless the gain they ablity to experience it in heaven).

Just because a person wants to do something does not even imply that they think it is good. They might wantto do it because it's Fun, or it makes them feel good or out of pure spite.
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Re: re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby Kolbitar » July 9th, 2006, 1:35 am

::Being enjoyable is not the same thing as being good.

Wolf, enjoyment is a good.

::Psychopaths don't do things because they're good simply because they don't know what "good" is.

Whatever one desires has the appearance of good.

::The best they can do is to do things that are fit (which is also not the same as good).

Fitness is a good.

::In order to know what good is you have to have the experience of good and that's forever denied a psychopath.

My argument relies merely on the fact that a psychopath need only experience some kind of good.

::Just because a person wants to do something does not even imply that they think it is good.

The object of a want offers, by definition, some appearance of good.

::They might wantto do it because it's Fun

Having fun is a type of good.

::or it makes them feel good

Feeling good is a type of good.

::or out of pure spite.

Lewis puts it much better than I can:

"In real life people are cruel for one of two reasons -- either because they are sadists, that is, because they have a sensual perversion which makes cruelty a cause of sensual pleasure to them; or else for the sake of something else that they are going to get out of it -- money or power or safety. But pleasure, money, power and safety are all, as far as they go, good things. The badness consists in pursuing them by the wrong method, or in the wrong way, or too much. I do not mean, of course, that the people who do this [commit cruel acts] are not desperately wicked. I do mean that wickedness, when you examine it, turns out to be the pursuit of some good in the wrong way." --Lewis
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » July 9th, 2006, 3:44 am

No, moral good and enjoyment are two completely different things.

But if you insist then......

Pleasure comes from the stimulation of the pleasure centers in the brain. You can get it arbitrarily and atificially by running an electrode into the brain and stimulating those centers. If that's moral good then there's nothing external about that. If moral good comes from seeking pleasure then Lewis' idea of the moral law as something exterior to Man is again cooked.

Mind you, I deny that pleasure is moral good.
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Re: re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby Kolbitar » July 9th, 2006, 12:08 pm

::No, moral good and enjoyment are two completely different things.

Well, Wolf, enjoyment is something we seek, therefore it has the appearance of goodness. Anything which is the object of our conscious desire appears, by definition, as good--as an object of pursuit. That doesn't mean it's objectively good for us, this merely establishes the fact that "every single one of us acts and must act as if some things are really good, and some things really bad."

::If that's moral good then there's nothing external about that. If moral good comes from seeking pleasure then Lewis' idea of the moral law as something exterior to Man is again cooked.

We're not discussing the content of objective goodness, I'm first trying to establish the basic fact that every single person acts as though some things are good for him, and some things should be avoided. Like I said, I want to stay focused solely on this for now. If we cannot agree even on this basic fact then future progression will be impossible.

::Mind you, I deny that pleasure is moral good.

I didn't say pleasure is moral good, I said pleasure is A good. It is an object of our desire, and all such objects, as I've repeatedly stated, have the appearance of goodness. You've essentially afirmed this by stating "psychopaths are interested in how others treat them because they want to avoid pain and inconvenience." Your statement implicitly agrees with my point from an earlier post, "1.) Every single one of us acts and must act as if some things are really good, and some things really bad--that's a fact of our conscious existence whether we acknowledge it or not." I'm not assuming the content of the good, just the fact that something is being pursued as good, which is nothing other than to say something is desired. Now the ball is in your court, you either see this implicit agreement and we can go on, or you don't, and we go our seperate ways.

I'll leave you the potential last word...

Thanks,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » July 9th, 2006, 6:25 pm

Kolbitar, good - morally objectively, subjectively, or any other color - is not an issue to a psychopath. They simply want to do what they want to do and if you stand in their way, they will attempt to move you out of the way with extreme prejudice. It just so happens that some psychopaths want what society wants. I enjoy helping people out. I don't perceive it as good or honorable or nice. It's just what I like doing. I don't even care what other people think about it. It has nothing at all to do with how I'm going to profit by it. There is no moral character to what I do.

It just so happens that you are a moral creature and can't conceive of any action not having a moral aspect to it. If you can't grasp it, that's okay, but I'm telling you, as a born psychopath, that it's so.

I'm even able to compare what I feel with what other people feel because, being a Therian, I'm also an empath and I can feel what other people are feeling. Some of those feelings are completely alien to me and are a bit of a shock at times, but that's one of the blessings/curses of being what I am.

I would use animals for example - do you think they feel moral imprative,they certainly want to do things - and you (if you're typical) probably believe that they're not moral. But by any indicator we can access, they do feel moral imperatives, so it would be rather dishonest for me to do so, so I won't.

We don't need to settle on what is good (instead of what is morally good), because that is not the meaning of good that is used in Lewis' argument. We need to begin with the appropriate definitions for the terms in use. Otherwise, you are introducing confusing ambivalence from the beginning.
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Re: re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby Kolbitar » July 9th, 2006, 8:16 pm

Like I said, I really want to stay focused. You either see this implicit agreement and we can go on, or you don't, and we go our seperate ways. I've clearly defined the fact that everyone seeks what appears good to them, and your quotes about psycopaths merely back this observation (enjoyment is perceived as a good, pleasure is perceived as a good). I see nothing in your response which directly answers whether or not we agree on the essential fact that, to put it bluntly, every person has desires, the objects of which appear good (like enjoyment and pleasure).

Thanks,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » July 9th, 2006, 8:24 pm

Some definition of the word "good" could apply to what your saying - for instance, I'm about to drink some chai and I'm going to think, "Boy, that's good," but what bearing does that have on Lewis' argument, which is what we're taking about?
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Re: re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby Kolbitar » July 9th, 2006, 8:31 pm

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » July 9th, 2006, 8:37 pm

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Re: re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby JSD » July 10th, 2006, 3:56 am

Lewis on Desire: But this brought me already into the region of awe, for I thus understood that in deepest solitude there is a road right out of the self, a commerce with something which, by refusing to identify itself with any object of the senses, or anything whereof we have biological or social need, or anything imagined, or any state of our own minds, proclaims itself sheerly objective. Far more objective than bodies, for it is not, like them, clothed in our senses; the naked Other, imageless (though our imagination salutes it with a hundred images), unknown, undefined, desired.

Kolbitar,

I agree with argument by desire, as I think I mentioned. On the whole I think it a wonderful contribution to apologetics. And, it matches and resonates with my life.

At bottom, that fact it relies on most, is an observed experience within Lewis himself, which clearly has assent form many as an experience in them as well. The above articulates it.

And the above, of course, is not the argument by desire itself, but a statement that considers the phenomenon of the kind of desire that Lewis spoke about. He writes … for I thus understood ….. and then sets out the distinction he is making, a desire exists that is not identified with anything on earth, permits commerce with it, is outside of self, is not imagined etc. …. all set down with felicity.

I was merely saying that that kind of thing, that kind of writing is not strictly logical. He says of the desire that it “proclaims itself”. Well, such language is not subject to proof of any kind, but is part of that particular definition. To suggest that a desire proclaims itself is to speak the language of spirit, to believers, but the mere language of psychology to the naturalist.

Two observations (the second of which I may be too tired to makes properly).

1. I am viewing this generally from the perspective of a non-believer. As a believer I have no trouble picking out the desire Lewis speaks of from any number of desires prodding me at any point in time. And it has long been associated to God in my life, but associated not through reason but that reassurance of the spirit, which is language I am forced to use to explain the firmness of my unproveable knowledge. I cannot deny the facts, nor the experience, nor the holiness.


2. The second point is that this is a lovely example of Lewis’ other great talent; namely expressing himself by leaning on that power of myth to tell the truth. Lewis understood that in myth the truth comes closest to be tasted as well as known – to use his own words and to reference his comment on this in “On Stories”. It is my view that he was adept at capturing the mythical quality, not only occasionally in his narratives but also in his prose, even his expository prose. The response that is made to certain writing is like that response that is made to myth. A kind of touching of the truth, logic aside. Lewis, like Plato, often proceeds in utter logic from pages, and then, nearing his end, he leaves off and accesses the higher truth of where he wants to go through writing that is more imaginary than anything else. That is not to diminish it, but just to say it is not the standard of scholarship. It is just this skill, in my view, which contributes so much to why people love Lewis, not just read him. And what set him apart from better academics who are as boring as concrete.

John
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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby CKinna » July 17th, 2006, 7:38 am

Please excuse my laziness, but I am pressed for time and need an answer. I have been reading C.S. Lewis In A Time Of War by Justin Phillips and was wondering if this is the same book as C. S. Lewis at the Bbc: Messages of Hope in the Darkness of War also by Phillips? I need to know the answer for a newsletter article. I have searched the internet (briefly) and have been unable to find the answer. Any help would be wonderful. Speaking of the newsletter article, I am writing for the CS Lewis Society of Frederick (MD) and we will be having our "Kick-Off" Meeting in September and in October we will be beginning a study of Mere Christianty. If you are interested or know someone in the Frederick County, MD area please send them my way. A link to more inofrmation is found below. Thanks!


What does not satisfy when we find it, was not the thing we were desiring. - Brother Jack
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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby Sven » July 17th, 2006, 2:16 pm

Hi, CKinnia!

There are the same book, for some reason Harper changed the title when they got the rights to publish it from the original publisher, Fount, at least in the US. They kept the same name in the UK.

As a matter of fact, Phillips died just before the book was published by Fount back in 2002, so he never go to actually see it in print.
Rat! he found breath to whisper, shaking. Are you afraid?
Afraid? murmured the Rat, his eyes shining with unutterable love.
Afraid! Of Him? O, never, never! And yet -- and yet -- O, Mole, I am afraid!
Then the two animals, crouching to the earth, bowed their heads and did worship.
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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby CKinna » July 18th, 2006, 4:39 pm

Thank you for your ever present help. :smile:
What does not satisfy when we find it, was not the thing we were desiring. - Brother Jack
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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » July 22nd, 2006, 3:27 pm

JSD, I pretty much agree with you. I also would not go so far to say that the argument by moral law (or by desire) is at all worthless although it is logically weak. The concept may also "resonate" with the minds of nonChristians and they may accept it on that account.
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re: Discussion: Mere Christianity

Postby AllanS » July 25th, 2006, 9:13 am

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

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