A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

[rusmeister]

[JRosemary]

[Fea_Istra]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, JRosemary. :) I see what you mean about 'choosing stories', and I feel pretty much the same way about Christianity as you feel about Judaism. I guess our difference lies in that I do evaluate ideas based on 'true or false', which is probably why I wrote my post - to understand how other people read Lewis.

I agree that everything that is good and "endorses healing the world" (as you said), is from God, because it seems to me that we wouldn't have any good in us if it wasn't put there by Him. So I think that people of all religions can be good and be beneficial to our world. However over time I also came to believe that the human race needs help that goes beyond good philosophies and ethics, and this brought me to Christianity. I feel like my life has really changed after I decided to follow Jesus Christ, even though I still have a lot to go. I found that before no matter how much I tried to be good and live by a list of rules, I failed, but God has really transformed me on the inside after I became a Christian. I think Lewis was talking about this in one of his books (Mere Christianity?). What I really like about my faith is that it's not just trying to be good by following some rules, but about being changed by God Himself through a personal, loving relationship. And I see truth in the whole Christian story.

However, we humans can't pretend to know the ways of God, and I think it matters quite a bit who we serve in our heart, not just in word. And of course if one is really following God they would improve as a person. So for all we know maybe it's true what Lewis said in the Last Battle about the Calormene soldier getting into Aslan's country...My opinion is that if anyone wants to know what the truth is, they should just pray to God, keep an open mind, and find out. That's more reliable than listening to other people's views of the truth so even though I feel confident in what I believe, and I feel that it is the truth, I would rather have people find their faith as individuals instead of preaching to them because if they sincerely ask God for the truth I believe He would show them. The key is wanting to find an answer. Of course I still think that it's a good idea for people to discuss their faith with others, just so that we all know different perspectives and aren't ignorant....which is why I tell people about Christianity, just so they know. Also because God has really helped me in my life and I wish that others would also know that joy...but of course the best way to share His love and goodness with others is by being good and loving yourself, not just talking.

I'm still thinking about this. Sorry for the rambling

Anyway, I think I understand a bit more now. If one is not really concerned with the question of 'true/false', they can read Lewis' books quite easily and enjoy them too. However if one is concerned with the question, then you are forced to apply it to Christianity (since that is what Lewis wrote about..). I guess the reason it's sometimes difficult for me to read books with very atheistic ideas (I can read fine about other religions for some reason) is because I do always ask that question...of course, that doesn't mean I am not interested in other viewpoints, because I am. That's why I'm here.

fea

:snowflake:

[rusmeister]

I believe I understand where you are coming from, JD. There is a reason you don't think of religion as true or false.

But we can't really have a conversation about this because your philosophy is essentially pluralistic relativism - there is no absolute truth and all religions are of more or less equal value.

I, on the other hand, insist that there is absolute Truth that does not depend on our point of view, the need of all for oxygen being a good enough example of that for me. Iam not trying to say that people are only 'right' or 'wrong', but certainly that we can be closer to or farther from that Truth, or more accurately, hold beliefs that contain greater or lesser parts of that Truth. This precludes relativism and reveals it to be illogical.

No point in discussing how the branches of our ideas are different if the trunks are fundamentally different. But some houses (philosophies) are built on stone, and others on sand. You have to identify and look to the foundation.

Have you tried GK Chesterton's "The Everlasting Man"?
http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/%7Emward/gkc/b ... g_man.html
Or "Orthodoxy" or "Heretics" by the same?
http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/%7Emward/gkc/books/index.html

[Fea_Istra]

"pluralistic relativism": I kept on trying to remember that word but now you've said it. Well...I used to be a 'pluralistic relativist' but then I somehow became an 'absolute, objective Truth - with a capital T' person. lol
However I don't think that human philosophies/ideas/etc are 100% right or 100% wrong, but that it's more of a gradual scale. I believe that Christianity has a lot of truth in it, but we are able to have a relationship with God not because we hold a certain opinion...but because of a certain Someone. So: we need a Savior because mere ideas and personal effort don't do the job.

[JRosemary]

[JRosemary]

[JRosemary]

[rusmeister]

[Fea_Istra]

Oki, hi everyone, I'm back to this thread :)

"Who's to say that God's not the author of them all?"

I don't know whether or not God is the 'author' of all ethical religions/philosophies, but I believe that merely holding an idea isn't enough to get into heaven (I'm mentioning heaven because many religions are concerned with the afterlife). So I guess to me, it doesn't matter that much......*still thinking*

Personal effort:

I agree that no religion would separate God and His creation to such an extent that we would be living by personal effort, because as you said God sustains all life and without Him it would perish. In my opinion we do have free will because we have choices...yes we are influenced by many things, but perhaps to a degree we choose what we are influenced by (God or the world?).

I should have been more clear, I was talking about what it takes to get into heaven.....now this may just show my ignorance of other religions and I admit I'm no expert at any of them. Correct me if I'm wrong about these points.... it seems to me though that in most religions, you get into heaven by following some morals and rules. That actually makes a lot of sense, and promotes goodness on earth, so I like that. But it seems to me that no amount of good works would be able to 'buy' heaven, which is perfect, and we are not. I have observed this in myself. So then where is the line between 'a bit of sin' and 'too much sin'? It seems very hazy to me... in Christianity, it's more about forgiveness (and of course that doesn't mean we get to sin repeatedly, it is required of us that we try. God knows that we'll mess up though).

Salvation is what we believe gets people into heaven, and this requires free will (a choice that the individual makes), but is done through no personal effort. God does it for us. Once a person is forgiven of sin, they would of course try to be good, or their faith is too weak. So in a way, good actions are very important - they are the evidence of our faith. "Faith without works is dead". Some Christians have observed that instead of trying to be good, we should just let God change us from the inside, and then all that is required of us is letting go of our resistance and pride...and not choosing anything above God. Well I'm sure you've heard these ideas before. It's definitely not as easy as I made it out to be in this post, in fact letting go of one's 'natural self' is the most difficult thing a person can do, even more difficult than just doing good deeds. I'm just trying to say that Christianity is less about us trying to do something, and more about God trying to do something in us...and while many other religions talk about God as Someone unapproachable and distant, Christianity teaches that His Holy Spirit is within us, and He is always present.

However there are many views on all this. Some believe that actions are more important, some - less. I think that BOTH faith and good works are important, just for different reasons. Faith gets us into heaven, good works are the evidence of our faith and are also very important....but one should not try to be good to get some 'extra points' and some 'extra rewards in heaven'....it should go deeper than that. Some religions seem to focus on that idea though...and while some teach that people get into heaven by their actions and willpower, Christianity teaches that are able to get into heaven at all because of what God has done. That is what I meant by 'personal effort': we are good because of God, not because of us.

Again, I am not an expert in other religions, and I'm not trying to say that they are fully wrong and useless. Since every religion is about a God/gods/goddesses, of course there is an element of a relationship in each one. I just see Christianity as a very effective way to re-unite with God, which I consider to be something all people need.

As to God and G-d, I see what you mean that His actual Name is somehow above our use of the word 'God'....however, personally I think it's alright to say 'God' as long as the person is taking His name seriously and respectfully. In the end, G-d is also a combination of letters, so it doesn't really matter to me which word I use, more like how I use it. I think it's a matter of personal choice, and either way is fine...

fea

[JRosemary]

[Karen]

[Fea_Istra]

Hi JRosemary! lol oki I think I'm figuring it out. Thanks for clarifying :P

It's very true that it's good to learn other viewpoints, I agree with you there. I haven't covered all of them yet: I researched Humanism, Pantheism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Islam, and some old nature based Pagan religions (like what the druids believed). I also researched satanism out of sheer curiosity. I read a bit about Hinduism but not enough. And Judaism, alas I don't know that much about it at all...but that can be easily remedied

I think you're right about the differences between the religions though. I guess I saw truth in Christianity after I tried to fix my bad habits but still couldn't get rid of the thoughts behind them...it seems to me to go deeper than that. This is why I agree with the idea that we are fallen and need a Savior. I know that not all religions have this idea, but since it seems to me the main problem of the human race I tend to evaluate other religions as 'possible solutions'. Christianity turns out to be the best solution to the problem, yes a problem that it's based upon, but still one that I believe to be very correct.

"...while many other religions talk about God as Someone unapproachable and distant, Christianity teaches that His Holy Spirit is within us, and He is always present."

"Forgive me for sounding impertinent, but you'll have to do better than this. Don't talk vaguely about 'many other religions'--give me specific examples."

LOL oki sorry about that. I think this is how my thought process went:
It seems to me that Muslims see God as being very separate from creation. That's one extreme. The other extreme is pantheism, which I disagree with. Christianity is sort of a balance in this regard: God who is always present and with us, but not the same thing as creation. I guess that's what happens when I write my posts at night So I guess I can say this:
In Christianity, it is about God trying to reach us, not us trying to reach God. I can not say anything about other religions, and I don't fully know if they are the same or different in this regard. But when it comes to Christianity, this is what I like about it.

wow I sure feel ignorant now but maybe that's because I've mostly researched atheism and humanism, and you focus on Judaism and Hinduism in your posts.

Karen, oh I agree, it shouldn't be the main goal of Christians. We should try to serve God in all we do out of love for Him, not to get some reward. But the idea of heaven is in there somewhere. The only sensible reason for wanting to go there is just because you want to be with God, because if you want it for something else you are placing whatever it is above Him.

That's a great quote by the way

[Karen]

[JRosemary]