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A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Comprising most of Lewis' writings.
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A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby rusmeister » June 27th, 2006, 4:22 am

(Note to Dr Z and Sven: I wasn't sure where to post this, because it's not intended to be a discussion of Christianity per se, and is rather specific to Lewis's work, esp. apologetics. If you think this is better placed elsewhere, go ahead!)

A question for Wardrobians and regulars who are not considering conversion to Christianity (N/A to guests).

My question is this:

What draws you to a C.S. Lewis website?

I have no desire to debate and no intention of further response on this thread (unless the question needs clarification). I want to just listen and would really like to know whether:

a) You haven’t read (many of) his works yet but really intend to? (What r u waiting 4?)

b) You haven’t read them and don’t intend to? (Why not?)

c) You have read them and believe that he is wrong. (This would invite a debate/discussion thread elsewhere)

d) You like Narnia because it’s great fantasy and just don’t pay attention to the Christian symbolism, and don’t care to read his other works [see b)]

…and so on.

When I first began posting here I assumed that most of the posters must be Christian. I began to learn that there is a sizeable non-believing minority here, including some quite intelligent and thoughtful posters. I just find it mystifying that someone could read a lot of Lewis’s stuff, disagree, and yet come here and post regularly. I figure it's probably just me, so I just want to listen and learn.

PS: I'm not polling this because I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.
Last edited by rusmeister on June 30th, 2006, 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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re: A ? for committed agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby rusmeister » June 29th, 2006, 2:47 am

Does this question seem offensive or arrogant? :cry:

Or have the declared agnostics all converted to Christianity? :rolleyes:

Or maybe someone cast an "unnoticeability spell" on the post. :??:

I'm really not trying to ask for prideful or other nasty reasons. I'm just genuinely bewildered that people could be well aware of Lewis's work, disagree (or simply not want to convert), and yet keep coming back and regularly posting on his works. (I am NOT saying that you are not welcome or something foolish like that. I just really would like to understand.)

What it appears (to me) to be is described in "The Screwtape Letters", ch. 1 pg. 1

But I may be mistaken. If I am, please say so. Fire away!
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re: A ? for committed agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby wingedllama » June 29th, 2006, 4:29 am

Rusmeister,

I am a Christian but I just wanted to say that I don't think you've been offensive at all. I think that you're right in saying that nonbelievers are in the minority here (albeit a sizeable one as you say), AND I would also add my belief that this forum is not as frequented as some others. Or perhaps some one really has cast an unnoticeability spell. As far as I know these forums are not warlock-proof.

Anyways I am hoping that is the case because I have often wondered the same things you're wondering and any responses to this thread I would definately read.
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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby rusmeister » June 30th, 2006, 3:36 am

A slight change to the OP title. What I mean is people who are not committed to Christianity.
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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby rusmeister » July 3rd, 2006, 4:10 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby robsia » July 3rd, 2006, 4:41 pm

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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby john » July 3rd, 2006, 8:22 pm

I disagree, Linda. I have no idea why people aren't responding...but I do find the question interesting.

I'll bite -- but I don't have a lot to say about it.

rusmeister, were you aware that I consider myself a non-Christian? I was born and raised a Mormon, started this site when I was 25, left the church when I was 28, floated around unsure of what to do spiritually, then decided I didn't really care enough about it to pursue it any further. I now consider myself a very happy and moral agnostic.

Why did I start coming here? Well, I created it, so I kind of had to. :) Why did I create it? Because I love the Narnia books and I consider Lewis to be one of the greatest authors and thinkers of our time. Why do I continue to run the site, even though I'm not a Christian anymore (and some would even argue that I never was)? Do I have a choice? :lol:
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Re: re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby robsia » July 3rd, 2006, 9:47 pm

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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby rusmeister » July 4th, 2006, 3:09 am

Thanks for responding, John!
Yes, I did recently (to my surprise!) figure that out.
My mom was LDS for a while, too.

One of the reasons I re-posted in here, Linda, was that silence seems to be the kind of reply that is not favorable to the unbeliever - kind of like a person pleading the 5th amendment in court (whatever I say may tend to incriminate me...)

Lewis is about Christian apologetics - is Christianity true or not? Anyone who regularly reads and discusses Lewis here would have to agree, disagree, or try very hard not to think about that all-important question.

The only exception, to my mind, is that I can understand that people can enjoy Narnia (and maybe the space trilogy - but it's much harder - the theology is much more bare-faced) as Mere Fantasy and want to discuss them.

There may be other good exceptions. That's why I'm asking. If not, then I would conclude that the person is evading that all-important question. You can't find that question Merely Entertaining. Or not interesting, for that matter, either.
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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby robsia » July 4th, 2006, 6:10 am

Um, "why do you like posting on a CS Lewis forum" is the 'all-important question'.

Gosh!

I thought it was "Life, the Universe and Everything." I know that one!

Anyway, I have actually answered this very question several times in various places on this board. I do tend to get sick of answering the same questions over and over again. So, not that I feel the need to justify myself to you in any way, shape or form, but I'm not evading the question :wink:

Just sick of answering it, like it's something important.
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Re: re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby rusmeister » July 4th, 2006, 6:05 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby robsia » July 4th, 2006, 7:02 pm

Is Christianity true - I don't know.

Do I think it is true - no.
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Re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby Theo » July 5th, 2006, 10:43 am

I've been away for some time so I hadn't noticed the question before. Brief recap on my religious position: raised Christian, gradually lost faith (or at least certain conviction) between about 15 and 20, now agnostic. I do consider myself very much a Christian-based agnostic and still adhere to most if not all of the moral and philosophical principles I grew up with. I think Allan S referred to himself as an agnostic Christian, and I guess you could call me a Christian agnostic. (Or if it was the other way around.) I remain strongly attached to many principles I would not hesitate to call Christian.

What draws me to a C. S. Lewis website? Well, most obviously, I'm a fan of Lewis and have been since I read The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe at age six or seven. It started my lifelong love for fantasy.

I've read most of Lewis' work, except The four loves, The discarded image, Loki bound, The dark tower and some hard-to-find essays (I would really very much like to get my hands on his essay on George Orwell, another of my favourite authors), and I've liked most of it. I've read most of the books both as a practicing Christian kid or teenager and as an agnostic adult. The Narnia and Space Trilogy books have lost very little. They are still powerful fantasy stories, and the Christian symbolism in them is for the most part neither a strength nor a weakness - it's a part of their character. I do have some problems with The Last Battle, mostly because that's the one book in which I find the religious themes as they are implemented become obtrusive and structurally harm the book, but I'll save that for another thread. The point is that my objections are aesthetical.

The apologetics are somewhat different but not that much. I'm far less impressed by the arguments in Mere Christianity now than when I was 14, and I never much liked The Problem of Pain, but books like The Screwtape Letters and The Great Divorce are still powerful and thought-provoking even though I don't agree with their metaphysical assumptions.

Rus, I think you're making a bigger deal out of this than is valid. Lots of people read and love authors whose political and religious stances they may not agree with. Most who read and love Jonathan Swift do not agree with his vehemently misanthropic outlook, for example.

I agree with Lewis on a number of points, disagree strongly on others, and shrug about yet others.
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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby rusmeister » July 5th, 2006, 1:54 pm

Thanks, Theo.
That was along the lines of what I imagine I could expect as an answer.

As far as making a big deal of it, consider the view from the other side. People regularly post (in the apologetics forum, at that!), fail to refute Lewis's points (identify falsity in Lewis's arguments and why they could be false), and yet keep coming back. As if they were ignoring those arguments.
Then, when I asked why, I got dead silence. That definitely would seem to support the hypothesis that agnostics and atheists AVOID that question of whether Christianity is true or not.

The main reason that I brought this up at all, was earlier posts, where I tended to assume that the posters understood, and by and large, agreed that Christianity was true, even if doctrinal beliefs differ considerably. This misunderstanding on my part led to some sharp exchanges and didn't make me feel good at all.

Your response at least provides reasons I can understand, even if I don't agree. I haven't seen anybody effectively refute the truth that Lewis expresses. From that standpoint, it would seem strange that people were reading Lewis's arguments, somehow enjoying them and yet avoiding the question of whether they are true or false, as Lewis pointed out in Screwtape, ch. 1.

In any event, thanks for answering my question. I was beginning to despair of any answer at all.
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re: A ? for agnostics and non-Christians only

Postby robsia » July 5th, 2006, 3:55 pm

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