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Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Comprising most of Lewis' writings.
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Re: Priestesses in the Church?

Postby Tuke » October 20th, 2007, 12:48 am

"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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Re: Priestesses in the Church?

Postby rusmeister » October 20th, 2007, 2:22 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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And now for something _completely_ different...

Postby Dr. U » October 21st, 2007, 6:20 pm

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Re: And now for something _completely_ different...

Postby rusmeister » October 22nd, 2007, 5:28 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby Dr. U » October 23rd, 2007, 3:16 am

Well, I suppose I should say that some of those "I think"s are courtesy - I've seen some posts on this site that I was uncomfortable that we were moving into more heat than light, and I am trying to speak respectfully, and always keep in mind that we all only see in part.

Actually, I do respect church authority and wisdom very much, and try to read widely to learn from Christians of many ages and perspectives, as well as be active within a healthy church in my community. I also keep getting involved with Christians of an amazing variety of backgrounds in this and other countries. I'm orthodox with a small "o".

Based on Jesus' parable of the wheat and the tares, I stand by my statement that no church gets it all right, we all every one of us will discover there's been some mix of truth and error when Christ comes. I agree that centuries of tradition and debate can sometimes lead to wisdom; it can also sometimes lead to Phariseeism or be an old but still wrong conclusion about something. Sometimes, in fact, later traditions may contradict earlier traditions and even Scripture. That was one of Jesus' criticisms of the Pharisees, that they were setting aside the Word of God by their traditions. John Calvin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion devotes a series of chapters showing how various medieval councils not only moved further and further from the NT in certain ideas, but also overturned earlier councils of the early church on a number of subjects. I.e., Calvin and Luther (a former Augustinian monk and professor) and other Reformers sought to help return the Church to those earlier traditions closer to the Apostles, not deny the importance of the wisdom of the Church.

One of C.S. Lewis friends, Charles Williams, wrote a fascinating book, The Descent of the Dove, that wrestles with the whole question of interpreting the Holy Spirit's work within The Church - all of it - Roman Catholic, Greek and Russian Orthodox, Nestorian, Coptic and the various types of Protestants. He took seriously the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is given to all who believe in Jesus Christ, so God is at work in some way within every body of Christians, even if the other Christians don't like it! That's where I'm at: I take the received wisdom of 2,000 years of Christians as a gift of God, but, like the word about prophecies, try to obey to "test all things, hold fast to what is good", or like the Berean Jews, who examined the Scriptures to check out Paul's claims. That testing is not mechanical, it involves weighing Scripture directly, scholarly work, Christians who have proven worth (including the insights of our bro. CSL), and the work of the Holy Spirit in relation with us, all of those. I don't think that God who loves us intended for his Word to be so obtuse that we can't all understand the important stuff, even after decades of study, as I'm concerned your post seems to imply. We never reach the bottom, but we can truly know nonetheless, and, most important, we can know the way to know God personally through Christ. But we can't just hand off responsibility to "Tradition" - Tradition can be wrong, and there are multiple Christian Traditions at this point in history, all based on a real, visible Church.

I hope that makes sense.

I wasn't questioning that there are offices and some degree of hierarchy in the church, just that priests per se are not there in the NT. As far as respecting tradition on this, although there are churches that recognize the office of priest, other great Christian churches do not, including the millions of Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. I respect the office of priests whenever I am in a church that has that theology: they are pastors of Christ's flock. But I am saddened b/c I see many unnecessary traditions of man added to the office of pastor to create the concept of priest that (I believe) have hindered their effectiveness as Christian leaders. E.g., I think the Roman Catholic Church has really painted itself into a corner with their rule about the required celibacy of priests, and it's too bad.

And I meant what I said that all Christians are priests. It's not just words, every Christian has authority to act in a priestly, intercessory manner in the spiritual world, even if not all have learned to live that way. May we all fulfill our calling
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Re: Priestesses in the Church?

Postby kbrowne » October 23rd, 2007, 5:50 pm

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Postby rusmeister » October 25th, 2007, 1:43 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Postby Dan65802 » October 25th, 2007, 6:00 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Re: Priestesses in the Church?

Postby digorykirk » October 25th, 2007, 6:12 pm

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Re: Priestesses in the Church?

Postby Karen » October 25th, 2007, 6:20 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby rusmeister » October 25th, 2007, 6:34 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Postby Dan65802 » October 25th, 2007, 8:44 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby rusmeister » October 26th, 2007, 2:51 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Postby Dr. U » October 27th, 2007, 3:17 am

Hi all! I'm up to the wazoo in midterm exams and student essays, so haven't checked on this thread for awhile. Interesting stuff to read.

RusM, you're correct that I'm alluding to authorities besides the Bible. In fact, Karen, your post about the "three legged stool" of Scripture, tradition and reason I suspect fits where a lot of us beneficiaries of CSL probably fit. It's hard for me to think of any great Christians of any denomination that wouldn't be drawing on all three of those, and also the direct, tender guidance of the Holy Spirit in day-to-day ministry opportunities.

I love The Church! She's profoundly a paradox, the Kingdom of God both here and yet to come. That element of paradox is even one of the wonderful aspects of Orthodox theology I particularly appreciate. Jesus is the greatest paradox, fully God and fully human, perfect and yet made sin for us. The Bible is also a paradox, God-breathed, yet written down by imperfect, sinful people using human language and culture. And we ourselves as Christians are paradoxes, our sins paid for, but salvation still being worked out in our minds and behaviors, God's adopted children, but sometimes you'd never guess it from how we act.

So I do take Church Tradition and the accumulated teaching from 2,000 years very seriously. But none of our institutions have proven infallible, every one has sometimes needed correction, and has sometimes rejected it. That includes the O.C. What were they thinking, for example, when they called for all those pogroms on the Jews? Was there any one, or any way, that the O.C. leaders could or would have listened to at that time, who could have rebuked them, that they were burning the home of Jesus in those pogroms? Their faith in their own institution was so great that they were able to commit atrocities, and believe they were pleasing God. Or when the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church mutually excommunicated each other from the Body of Christ around 1000 AD?

It's easy to think of examples like these for every Christian denomination I'm aware of, and bad stuff can happen in little churches proud that they're "independent' of any denomination, too!

My point is that we ALL need to listen to each other carefully, as well dwelling in the Bible, including, as the Exiled New Englander noted, seeking to understand a text the way the readers would have, as best we can. The OC would be wise to listen to the Baptists, and the Baptists to the OC and etc, etc. If even Peter, one of Jesus' closest three apostles, and the man Roman Catholic Christians claim as the first Pope, had to be publically rebuked by Paul for ethnic bigotry (e.g., in Galatians), who are we to think we're immune from error? Lewis talks in several essays and books about the value of reading deeply from other time periods, and he modeled someone who also read books by Christians of many times and backgrounds. His correspondence in Latin with an Italian Roman Catholic priest is one of many fascinating examples. (I think it's out of print, but it's a worthwhile little book to track down. It has an English translation with the Latin.)

As a young Christian, I picked that up from Lewis between the lines, and it was one of the greatest gifts I believe I got from him, trying to learn from mature Christians of many backgrounds. It's really striking how the same Holy Spirit resonates across time and languages and cultures and types of churches, too. You can tell St. Augustine and St. Aquinas and St. Teresa and Bartolome de las Casas and Wesley and Luther and Aimee Semple McPherson and Corrie Ten Boom and John Wimber and etc., etc. all knew the same Jesus personally and profoundly, across many places and times. So, yes, RusM, I really do value Church Tradition, from the whole Church.


We have to keep coming back to the fact that all these Gentile churches are graftees into the root of Israel, and look at how Jesus related to the Jewish Covenant. If Jesus pronounced judgment on the Jerusalem Temple and the priesthood, which truly had detailed Scriptural instructions from God for many aspects, (unlike The Church, which really has few practical details given anywhere in the NT), why would we think any of our institutions above ever being in need of correction, no matter how old they might be? Or that what isn't clearly held to by all Christians, may not be essential after all? In that last category, I believe many of our institutional structures belong: whether a given church organization has a chain-of-command, or a board of peer leaders, or tries to operate democratically by vote, or waits for consensus. A good case can be made from Church History that the Holy Spirit has worked through all of those institutional structures at different times, when a church has been devoted to Christ, and there's been disasters with all of those, when peoples hearts are cold to Christ. The critical question is always whether Jesus is welcome.

I should share why I originally responded to this thread about "priestesses in the church": A couple summers ago, I had the opportunity to meet a woman who is an evangelist and church planter in a country that must remain unnamed. I was present at a brief meeting she had with some Christians committed to prayer and other types of support for her country. Conversion to Christ and baptism is legal grounds for death there. God has used her - and her husband, although she seems to be recognized by him and others as the senior leader in a Christian movement - to help guide many people to faith in Christ and quietly begin a network of churches. God has so far delivered her and her family from death, but the possibility is always there. This particular example is one of many indigenous churches God has raised up, that, like Paul's conversion, are God's doing, not church strategies. She illustrates why I believe we need to take more seriously that ALL Christians are priests, and even if we're in a church with people in the office of priest, work to break down the barrier between clergy and laity, so that people are more liberated to minister.

Oops - guests just arrived! Gotta go! I hope this has some edification value for the thread!

In Christ,

Dr. U, "orthodox with a small "o""
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Postby rusmeister » October 27th, 2007, 8:40 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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