Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

[Dr. U]

Hmmm.... OK, how 'bout this as a response? The visible church is what is ephemeral, and the invisible church is what is concrete.

That's consistent with the themes of many of Jesus' parables, including the wheat and the tares: we, in this life, can't judge someone's final state with God by appearances, but there will be sorting out at the end everywhere. Visible appearances will no longer be of value.

The desire for a visible, structural system that offers predictable security is one root of becoming a Pharisee. E.g., the Ten Commandments say "Rest on the Sabbath and do no work" - so, what is work? What is rest? By the time of Jesus, the rabbis had worked so hard to program out all ambiguity that there were some who had pronounced that spitting on the ground on the Sabbath was work, b/c the spit might make a tiny furrow, thus plowing. This tendency is a perennial weed for all of us, in every type of Christian institution. I've seen it grow up just as fast in evangelical, "non-denominational" churches that liked to think of themselves as breaking free from the traditions of centuries, as anything in churches that go back centuries or even millenia.

If God judged the visible institutions of his own covenant people Israel, He sure is just as capable of judging our visible church systems, whatever they are. We can't rest on our laurels! That type of healthy fear of God also helps me to be gentle with my brothers and sisters in other Christian traditions, all of us sinners so prone to making mistakes. In fact, responding to my dialogue friend RusM, it's not "somebody's right and somebody's wrong", (which is rarely true even in family or work conflicts). I'd quote Proverbs that "iron sharpens iron". We can always learn from Christians who have lived close to Jesus, whatever visible, ephemeral church they may have belonged to.

Everything that we do that's visible is only of value if it helps people to come to Jesus, and that's contingent on each of us diligently seeking his presence ourselves, so that our visible works will be guided and empowered by him, in spite of our natural sinful tendencies. According to Jesus, even diligently studying the Bible isn't profitable if it doesn't bring us to Him (John 5:39-40).

There is a story in one of G.K. Chesterton's books that Dominic Guzman ("St. Dominic"), founder of the Dominican Order, one of the renewal orders in the late Middle Ages, visited Rome. The Pope personally showed him all the (then) new buildings. He said, "You see, Peter no longer has to say, 'Silver and gold have I none'". Dominic was reported to reply, "Yes, and neither can he say anymore, 'In the name of Jesus Christ, rise up and walk'".

[rusmeister]

[Dr. U]

Well, shoot, RusM, if a forum like this isn't for discussion ("going back and forth"), presumably among people who aren't blank slates, do you think it's only for people desiring to be instructed in the faith of the Orthodox Church? Now come on, that doesn't make sense - this wouldn't be a "forum" then.

However, here are some honest questions I really would like answered.

The background to the question: I am a biologist. There are many scientists who work in biology who are Jewish. I have studied and worked with many Jewish scientists over the years. Many were or are the children and grandchildren of people driven from their homes by the pogroms under the Czars. Many have vivid family histories of the direct involvement of the Orthodox Church, priests leading pogroms, persecutors carrying crosses, etc. It credibly sounds like these pogroms against the "Christ-killers" were approved from the highest levels of the Orthodox Church, perhaps the very highest. I unfortunately don't speak Russian, but what I read in English about that time in history consistently seems to support that conclusion.

What a travesty! Every one of us is a Christ-killer. It was all of our sin that put Jesus on the cross.

Anyway, it's common that Jewish people want nothing to do with Jesus b/c of these pogrom experiences in Russia, (and elsewhere, not by Orthodox Christians). I can't fault them, although, as a Christian, I have sometimes had an opportunity to ask some to forgive us. I also have Jewish friends who are Christians - one is even a pastor in San Diego - and, in some cases, their families disowned them, or avoided them for years, when they developed faith in Christ. And they don't blame their families either, b/c of what transpired over there in Europe and Russia.

My honest questions: If you had been living at that time as an Orthodox Christian in Russia, or, if the Orthodox Church again called for persecution against the Jews in Russia today, would you disobey? Would you speak out against your church? Would you do more than speak out, but seek to protect Jewish people against Orthodox Christians persecuting them, supposedly to honor God? If so, what standard would you appeal to against your church? If you believe it would have been right to obey the Orthodox Church and participate in persecution against the Jews, what would you say to a Christian with convictions like mine?

I'm really curious not just academically, but for the personal reasons I mentioned.

I also have an Albanian Christian friend who translated for Congressman Frank Wolf's visit to the Kosovar region of Serbia in the late 1990s, following the "ethnic cleansing" against the Kosovars by the Serbs. She was so sickened by the atrocities she had to translate details about, that she still cannot talk about what she heard, day-after-day, without breaking down. It went far beyond just soldiers killing soldiers, there were unspeakable things done even to children. The brutality of the Serbs in those civil wars seems to be all mixed up with the Serbian Orthodox Church: the S.O.C. just did not speak out against what was going on, and rather, seemed to inflame and justify the anger. It raised the same questions for me as with the pogroms against the Jews under the Czars, but troubles me b/c it illustrated a contemporary pogrom that the Serbian Orthodox Church not only did not stand against - as best I know - but was part of the problem.

(My Albanian friend, BTW, was raised an atheist Communist, but became a Christian through some evangelical groups there. I also am aware that the Albanian Orthodox partriarch is a godly Christian man who has done a lot of good for his people post-Marxism. I remember to pray for him when I pray for Albania. I.e., I am NOT anti-Orthodox Christian.)

Can you tell me anything about that, as an Orthodox Christian? Can the Orthodox Church ever be wrong, and if not, why not?


(BTW, I also want to say that I didn't tell the story of St. Dominic as any sort of anti-Catholic or anti-Orthodox polemic. I don't think the story is about the role of "trappings" at all, and I think it's just as applicable to Protestants of all species, including myself. It's about the trap of relying so much on a structure or an institution, that one doesn't even realize that the presence of the Holy Spirit in power is no longer there.)

[galion]

[rusmeister]

[rusmeister]

[galion]

[galion]

[Dr. U]

Hi Galion:

I take the blame! It's my fault we got here from the ordination of women!

A week ago I asked whether, before worrying about ordination - or not - of female priests, we should seriously ask if the formal office of priests is required by the NT. A deeper issue yet I see as a divide between "laity" and "clergy", or the "spiritual" and "secular", or between "ministry" and "ordinary life" that has a lot more to do with pagan Greek philosophy than with what Jesus taught us or what's in the writings of his apostles. There is a important place for church structure, accountability, and other issues, but the way it all-too-easily begins to work out, is to make the majority spectators, whereas I believe Christ wants to empower all of us in ministry to others.

If I'm in discussion with Christian university students about "full-time ministry" (as the phrasing goes in American English), I encourage them to experiment with God's possible calling rather than first seek a title. First, they need to have a healthy, on-going relationship with Christ, studying the Bible, praying, including learning how to listen to God. Then, as God may impress needs on their heart, to DO something! Try talking to an atheist neighbor about Jesus! Help serve meals to homeless people and talk to them about God afterward! Try leading a Bible study or class with kids or teenagers or people in your neighborhood, perhaps starting with only one or two or three people! Pray for a sick person for healing! Real ministry begins with little steps of faith like those, and, if that's God's direction for someone, His blessing on it will be apparent, and recognition will come from others in its own time, with or without the title of "Reverend". (That's not to negate the importance of serious study to hone certain gifts like teaching either, and it may be appropriate to receive formal ordination as part of the recognition -but effective ministering of God's grace to others should be there first.)

Reading RusMeister's latest posts, I see that he and I really agree in many essentials. I'm confident that we have important items we would still disagree about, which is OK with me, and it doesn't mean that I'm not always trying to learn. (I trust he isn't either.) Here's a quote from his last post:

"The Church is made up of people who can be wrong. Orthodoxy, that which has been handed down from generation to generation from the beginning is not. You have to distinguish between men who are sinners and that which has been confirmed by the Church over time."

I think C.S. Lewis meant something similar by titling his most famous apologetic book Mere Christianity. That's also about what's been handed down from generation to generation from the beginning, the beliefs and relationship with Christ that one finds among all Christians. When RusM referred in an earlier post to the "visible church" as being the witness of Christ, it sounded to me like he meant primarily a continuity of institution, but he qualified that, very well. I should clarify as well that when I spoke of the "invisible church", I didn't mean that the people are invisible - many have had great effects on their people and on culture, and most or all are members of one Christian church or another, not loners unconnected to other Christians, (which is not healthy Christianity).

I also did NOT mean that the Holy Spirit isn't present within a Christian institution or denomination merely b/c it is an institution or structure. I'm no anarchist. I meant that each of us needs to cultivate our relationship with God in Christ, and not catch ourselves ONLY relying on an institution orl program or history. I plan to learn more about this brother, but RusM's illustration of St. John of Kronstad warning the Orthodox Church probably is an example of what I meant about someone holding to eternal truths speaking out against his own Christian church when it became captivated by the spirit of its age.

I'm convinced that we cannot deduce from the NT every detail of what we need to live a fruitful Christian life, and it was no mistake by God: the missing piece is an on-going relationship with God in each confusing situation we find ourselves in, to give us special grace and wisdom to discern how to live out Scripture at that moment, in addition to church tradition and reason.

Back to ordination of women:

I myself find the NT teaching on women in leadership....still somewhat confusing. There is the promise that your "sons and daughters will prophesy" in Acts 2, and various women identified as leaders, such as Priscilla. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was present at Pentecost, and thus was one of the people testifying in another language to the crowds, perhaps in the Temple Courts. At a time when Jewish men thanked God liturgically (albeit not scripturally) that they were not women, Jesus did not silence women, women were among his disciples, and He gave the news of his Resurrection to women first to tell others. His 12 apostles were men, although it is debated if that was to fulfill the parallels to a new Israel (e.g., 12 sons, more-or-less, of Jacob), or represented a mandate of transmitted authority. There are other passages, especially in some letters of Paul (or authorized by him), that seem to limit women as not being pastors/priests/senior leaders. There is exegetical debate about all this among respected Christian scholars.

However, as mentioned in an earlier post, I personally know examples of women serving effectively as leaders of whole networks of churches in places previously without Christian witness. William and Catherine Booth and the Salvation Army; their convert Aimee Semple McPherson and the growth of the Foursquare Gospel Church that she later founded; and its' offshoots (including the Calvary Chapel movement) are all fascinating cases to ponder, that have significantly affected many millions of people for Christ. I myself have NO question that God gifts and blesses women for Christian ministry, titled or not.

So, while there may remain valid exegetical debate about certain offices or titles in the church, I just really affirm everyone, male and female, to seek God about when and where and how to begin bringing the Kingdom of God around them, rather than fighting for a title first to do so, or doing nothing "because they're not a priest/pastor/whatever". There's more than enough to do, everywhere!

Have a blessed week, all!

[galion]

Hello, Dr. U.

I think that part of the difficulty is linguistic. Although "priest" is indeed "presbyter" writ small, it is nowadays also used to translated "sacerdos / hiereus". About the latter I don't feel competent to comment.

However, a personal viewpoint: as a pro-feminist for many decades of course I supported women's ordination as a matter of principle. The heart also joined the head twenty-some years ago (in Cambridge, Mass.!) when I witnessed the female rector performing infant baptism.

Anyway, I've learned a lot from following the posts on this thread, epsecially yours and rusmeister's (Благодарю Вас, Русмейстер!), whether on women or not. thank you very much!

[rusmeister]

[Dan65802]

[Tuke]

[Dan65802]

[rusmeister]