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Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Comprising most of Lewis' writings.
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby Bluegoat » April 11th, 2009, 6:40 pm

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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby rusmeister » April 19th, 2009, 7:49 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby msd1835 » May 22nd, 2009, 8:01 pm

I would love to express my point of view on these subjects, but after reading all 12 pages I am totally confused. I too often ask how far can the Church adjust it's views for the sake of progress( I don't really approve of the term but it is the popular one). We start by giving up an inch, and then a foot, and so on and so on. I submit that maybe we need to totally examine our semi-flawed personal interpretations, as well as our dusty out-dated traditions; and reveal the fundimental truth that lies at the center of it all: Jesus.

Personally I believe that no priest ,pastor, nor pope has ever lived up to what I would call the Jesus standard. Therefore I must conclude that they are flawed. (I believe I am flawed too) And in being Flawed are Subject to falling into apostacy. Like the children of Israel found themselves away from God, the CHurch (how ever you deem it) has found it also. I think csl had this same concern as it reflects on the Pope. I believe that the traditions held by the RC and the EO have extreme marrit, and should be studied not for Biblical association (let us be honest except for like 3 there is none) but for their ability to edifiy the partaker. As for the What I consider the prime sacrements: I being of Pentacostal upbringing have taken to great study over how it should be regarded(baptism and communion are not stressed as much in PENTa.). But if we are to truely live the truth we must find it first. Some of the truth lies in tradition and the wisdom passed on to us by those before us, the rest lies in front of us; for us or our children to discover.

Let's not forget history and repeat it. The children of Israel followed their corrupt priests right into sin. Let us learn from our mistakes, and test all instructions weather from your tele-vanglist or your Pope by the standard of Scripture. No one is able to damn you for doing what is right in God's eyes.
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby rusmeister » May 23rd, 2009, 2:52 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby msd1835 » May 23rd, 2009, 7:37 pm

I understand your point of view...but it is a little contradictory in it's arguement. You say that we (in using Sola Scriptura ) are wrong on the fundamental grounds as we are not linked to tradition. The problem with this is that the very INDIVIDUALS that created the traditions used their own Sola Scriptura and that of their forerunners. This seems to be a very conveniant arguement for someone trying to rationlize a past inherited system that has no clear nor implied connection to scripture. It has the luxary of being right but never having to stand up to scrutiny.

I'll give you an example: I was raised to believe that wine and other like beverages were not to be consumed. As I grew in my spiritual walk I realized that what I was being taught as Biblical truth was not in the Bible at all. When I questioned those who had more knowledge of the Bible than myself, there began a mad scramble to find the rationale. Some people including my family some of which were raised RC, could not give the answers. So I discovered my own answers.

The answer is that indivduals who try to raise us in spiritual matters sometimes create certain rules, regulations, or practices that are helpful if not edifying to meet that goal. This is not a sin; it is wise. Which is why I feel a lot of RC and EO traditions have extreme marrit.

Now I don't suggest that every individual should create their own doctrine, this would be silly. I don't have the theological background nor biblical knowledge to even attempt such things. What I do suggest is that we trust our spirtual leaders in the things that we can prove according to scripture; and if not try to sense the motivation behind it. If no proper explaination can be obtained disregard it as faulty. We as christians are constantly trying defend ourselves against the world; due the fact that when the Church committed atrocities(RC,EO, Puritanism, etc.), individuals sat back and trusted those who were mentally disturbed.

I think that the RC and EO would have a lot easier time if the Bible wasn't so easy to get in the modern world. If that was the case they could just say "we know what is best for you just trust us no matter what!". But things being as they are we can find the truth out in scripture. The Bible says that all that believe in Christ will have everlasting life, it is not required to believe in the Pope, Priest, nor Pastor.

I am not trying to bash your beliefs just ask you(and everyone else) to take a real look at what you believe, and why you believe it. If you are totally committed to what you believe I am not going to convince you otherwise. In fact if I am true to my point YOU MAY BE RIGHT. Everytime you find an arguement proving your point, you strengthen you perspective; or else you discover an error in your logic. I think you trust your belief system very strongly, or else why spend so much time trying to defend it? Who knows one day I might find myself agreeing with you.(I am not joking, I might)

Oh yeah, on the point as to who decides what God wants us to do. God decides; that is why we have scripture in the first place. The rules for government, discipline, community, church, and personal/spiritual relationships are all sitting there waiting for us in scripture. Interpretation of the Bible does not override the literal meanings held within it. Do NOt Murder means Do not Murder.

As far as to whether Lewis would've left the Church of England. Yeh I think he would've. He seems through his writing to be firm in his Biblical beliefs. I think you could say the Church has been ripped apart since then. It only has a thin resemblance to what it was at that time.
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby rusmeister » May 25th, 2009, 3:07 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby msd1835 » May 26th, 2009, 5:20 pm

I would like to say first off...I have enjoyed our discussion..It is rational, intellegent, and in my opinion free from bias.

I have been taught that the Holy Spirit did not abandon the church. In fact the Holy Spirit is what edifies us, comforts believers, and gives any believer the power to spread the Gospel. I would find it to be ridiculas to assume that the Holy Spirit was not present at any time in history.

I guess my arguement comes from the fact that like any house built on any foundation, repairs after a substantial period of time are required. The order of priest in the Old Testament (sanctioned by God) needed reformations, and the law actually needed to be completed (by the Christ). If a house finds itself be eaten slowly by termites, it is necessary to fumigate or outrite remodel to keep the House intact.

If priests and popes are indeed human and capable of free will, how will God steal that will away to prevent them from mistakes? Instead God finds ways around the free will...by inspiring individuals to speak up. Here also lies the catch: How does one recognize the inspired from the mistaken? The answer is by understanding the scriptures. The earliest Church constructed of Jews would have a firm knowledge of Scripture(old testament) and the Apostles taught the teachings to the converts.

One aside at this point in Acts we find that all believers gave all their property over to the Diciples, and that no one went without their needs. I wonder how many of us would be comfortable doing that today? (way off topic I know; but it has always intrigued me.).

I am aware of the languages of the Bible; in fact my pastor is constantly teaching us the Greek meanings of new testament scripture. Many of my closest friends have taken Greek, and I have taken college courses in the Old and New testaments. I have seriously contemplated taking Hebrew classes. In fact Jesus is not really Jesus's name. (though that arguement could go on forever, so let's not tackle that one) It is because of this that makes me question the right of communion(In our beliefs). In my own church communion is taken once, perhaps twice a year. Yet the original meaning points to a constant partaking of it. This causes me to question our interpretation and may lead me to yours. Without actually studying the scriptures and trying to interpret it; I would be ignorant (or innocent at best) to the fact.

p.s. I love your tone of debate it does not inspire me to violence...lol!
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby Tuke » May 28th, 2009, 9:51 pm

"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby rusmeister » May 29th, 2009, 4:33 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby hammurabi2000 » May 30th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Rusmeister

Is the tradition of the church not what is shown by scripture?

Do you accept or reject the Book of Judas? Is the fact that it is not in the Bible evidence of significance?
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby rusmeister » May 30th, 2009, 5:04 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby Tuke » June 5th, 2009, 10:28 pm

"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby john » June 5th, 2009, 10:53 pm

Hey, do I need to separate you two?
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby rusmeister » June 6th, 2009, 2:25 am

I'm a little surprised at the tone of that last post myself. Throughout my own comments, I merely described the Orthodox position.
I've found most of your posts to be quite polite and reasonable, Tuke. But I will say that there is no such term as "Orthodoxer". It sounds derogatory to me. I'd be happy to respond to your comments, but would like to feel a little more consideration. I feel that you really misunderstand me deeply, beginning with the idea that the Church somehow "replaces' Jesus (I think that's based on the idea that the topic of discussion/debate centers around our differences, which are primarily about the Church. We both agree that Jesus is Lord.), and so on down the line.
Also, I think we use vastly different definitions on what we mean by the word "Church", which makes misunderstanding inevitable.
Also, I think we all have bad days. :smile:
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: Priestesses in the Church? ... from Jack's God in the Dock

Postby Tuke » June 6th, 2009, 6:42 am

"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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