This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

Thoughts on The Screwtape Letters

Comprising most of Lewis' writings.
Forum rules
Please keep all discussion on topic and in line with our code of conduct.

Thoughts on The Screwtape Letters

Postby Peepiceek » December 30th, 2007, 8:38 pm

I'm happy to report I have taken my first tenative step outside of my CS Lewis comfort zone. Until now I had only read CON albeit several times. It becomes abundantly clear to me that CON was indeed written for children and Screwtape was most assuredly not. I had no Idea Jack wrote on this intellectual level. I'm reminded of my transition from high school to freshman college where I learned I was not half so smart as I thought I was.

I find the book primarily disturbing on a religious level well beyond the itellectual level of giving my dictionary a sound workout. I thought I had it all figured out, that is to say I followed the simple three step plan to salvation. If it is to be believed that each of us has out own Wormwood to deal with my first reaction was: I'm doomed. I seem to have fallen into many of the pitfalls Screwtape is describing. Hopefully I'm am at least correct in my belief that in the end it will come down to a simple decision to look Christ in the face and love Him or run away into the darkness.

More to come. I have finished letter 23 and may immediately reread the book when finished for further comprehension. Perhaps I should record my thoughts one letter at a time.
User avatar
Peepiceek
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Oct 2007

Re: Thoughts on The Screwtape Letters

Postby Karen » December 30th, 2007, 8:45 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
User avatar
Karen
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Postby Peepiceek » December 30th, 2007, 9:23 pm



Yes it is an extremely simplified approach.
User avatar
Peepiceek
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Oct 2007

Postby Paul F. Ford » December 30th, 2007, 10:19 pm

Peepiceek,

Please do me/us a favor, while your first reading of The Screwtape Letters is still fresh, make note of the words, phrases, and concepts you did not understand; and send them to me for my annotated version.

In return, I promise to address each of them in this forum.

Gratefully,
Paul
Paul Ford—self-appointed president of the "245-3617 Club" and proud member of the "245-6317 Club"; author of the Companion to Narnia and the Pocket Companion to Narnia.
Paul F. Ford
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Camarillo, California

Re: Thoughts on The Screwtape Letters

Postby Tuke » December 30th, 2007, 11:17 pm

"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
User avatar
Tuke
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 971
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Florida

Postby Paul F. Ford » December 31st, 2007, 12:46 am

Good response, Tuke! You remind me to tell Peepiceek that Lewis is NOT teaching that each of us has a guardian devil. Wormwood is part of the fiction of The Screwtape Letters.

Thank God we are ALL under the Mercy.

Blessings,
Paul
Paul Ford—self-appointed president of the "245-3617 Club" and proud member of the "245-6317 Club"; author of the Companion to Narnia and the Pocket Companion to Narnia.
Paul F. Ford
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Camarillo, California

Postby rusmeister » December 31st, 2007, 2:16 am

FTR, Screwtape speaks of the patient as being Christian. He never speaks of him as being 'saved'. Indeed, the entire battle seems to indicate that the patient is not saved until the end.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Postby Peepiceek » December 31st, 2007, 11:55 am

User avatar
Peepiceek
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Oct 2007

Postby nomad » January 1st, 2008, 1:27 am

member of the 2456317 club
"Well," said Pooh, "what I like best -- " and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.
User avatar
nomad
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: I wish I knew

Postby Tuke » January 1st, 2008, 1:44 am

"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
User avatar
Tuke
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 971
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Florida

What about those devils?

Postby larry gilman » March 27th, 2008, 8:05 pm

larry gilman
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Sharon, VT

Postby archenland_knight » August 8th, 2008, 7:12 am

I see a couple of thought processes running concurrently here, so I'm going to respond to the themes rather than to specific quotes.

First, if one believes that each human has a specific "guardian angel", then why would it be so hard to believe you have a "nemesis demon"?

Now, personally, I don't believe at all that humans are assigned individual guardian angels. It makes for great stories, but I don't see any support for it in scripture. In fact, what I see in scripture indicates that they operate on more of a "zone defense" than "man-to-man coverage".

However, I wouldn't say I can prove that, either.

Second, if you ever read anything in Lewis' work with which you disagree, it does not make you a heretic. Lewis was a hard-core Anglican ... straight up "Church of England". Unless you too are Anglican, he probably had many beliefs with which you would disagree. I know I disagree with quite a bit of what he said. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy reading his work and taking wisdom and inspriation from it, even the parts I with which I disagree.

Third, I do believe that Lewis was saying that "Yes, this is how the devils work on our weeknesses". I think he believed, and I certainly believe, that devils watch for opportunities in our own weaknesses and own lusts, and have some power to strike at those points in us. The exact nature of this power I do not pretend to understand. I know only that the scriptures speak of it without explaining it in detail.

I am not suggesting that they can control our minds at all, but that they can attack and offer suggestions and rationalizations for our sins. We know that in the case of Judas, that satan actually entered into him, though we also know that by this point Judas had been in sin for some time, taking from the disciples' purse, and that he had left himself open to this kind of demonic influence.

1 Thessalonians 3:5 speaks of us being tempted by "the tempter", indicating that satan can influence tempations on humans. 1 Corinthians 7:5 speaks specifically of satan tempting through our lack of self control. In that verse, it is speaking specifically of sexual temptation, but I think the principal would apply to any temptation.

Most frightening of all is 1 Timothy 4:1

[quote="The Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1]"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."[/quote]

While v.2 says that "Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron," the liars must have gotten the doctrines from the demons mentioned in v. 1.

So yes, I think "Wormwoods" are very, very real. I think that like angels, they play a zone defense, but that makes them no less real, and no less dangerous.

However, the closer we are to God, the more time we spend in prayer and studying the scriptures, the stronger in us is the Power Of The Holy Spirit. And as you know, "Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world." So, if you belong to Christ, fear no demonic influence, my friend. You will always have the final say in whether you will follow Christ or the flesh. It is always your choice.

Now, finally, much of the difficulty with SL that is being expressed in this thread comes from a confusion about the goal that Screwtape and Wormwood have. The "patient" has become a Christian, but S & W are determined to draw him away from Christ and essentially recapture his soul for the kingdom of hell. No one mentions it here, but in the book Screwtape is even seen to say that "Many of these adult converts have been reclaimed after a brief sojurn in the Enemy's camp."

I suspect that those of you who are bothered by this are from churches that teach either the doctrine of "Unconditional Eternal Security" (i.e. Once Saved Always Saved) or the more Calvinistic doctrine of "Perserverence of The Saints".

Now, while this thread is not the place to have a debate on the truth or falsehood of those doctrines, you must understand that Lewis did not hold to either of these doctrines. He made this very plain in his other works.

No, no! Please don't try to tell me why you belive these doctrines are true. That is not the issue this thread is addressing. The issue for this thread is that Lewis did not belive either of them.

Remember, as I said before, Lewis was a hard core Anglican. The best insight into his own beliefs can be found in "Mere Christianity". In MC he states that if you want to know what he personally believed, "... it is written in the Common Prayer Book."

He wasn't Baptist. He wasn't Reformed Presyterian. He certainly wasn't Pentecostal (like me). No, no. He was "Church of England" through and through, and an understanding of Anglican theology and practice helps in understanding his work.

The Church of England does not now, nor has it ever, taught, the doctrines of Unconditional Eternal Security or Perserverence of The Saints. (I know, there have been Calvinists within the CE that have taught the latter, but it has never been the teaching of that church.)

In fact, in "Mere Christianity", Lewis speaks very plainly of the possibility of a person, once saved, being able to "loose the Christ life". From his writings there can be no doubt that he believed that it was possible for a truly born-again, saved Christian to fall away and loose that salvation.

Again, if you disagree with Lewis on that (I don't) then you probably need to start another thread to talk about it. Let's not clutter up this one with it.

So, Lewis was writing from the perspective that Screwtape and Wormwood actually did have a shot at getting their patient back, and that Screwtape has actually succeeded in this before. You may disagree with him, but that was his perspective.

I hope that helps.
User avatar
archenland_knight
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Obviously at a computer keyboard

Re: Thoughts on The Screwtape Letters

Postby StellerD » September 17th, 2009, 5:55 am

Your not alone :) I just finished Screwtape letters yesterday and it made several of incredibly bad habits that have caused large depressions in my journey so obvious to me i will almost have to conciously make the same mistake in order for it to happen again. It included smugness about being Christian (believing myself to be above others), pushing several things bothering my concience that I need to pray about into the back files, Love distracting me from my spirituality, and the way I pray. And the way Lewis reinforced the fact he loves us so many times was also really encouraging.

Im so glad he wrote this, Its exactly what I needed to hear at this stage of my life.

Keep rereading it, theres a lot in here that can be easily missed the first or second time reading it!
StellerD
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: Thoughts on The Screwtape Letters

Postby maralewisfan » October 28th, 2009, 7:51 pm

I think that this idea "zone defense" makes a lot of sense to me. I am doing a research paper on SL and the relevance to Christianity today. I have been re-reading book and looking through the Forums to help me in this effort.

Now, personally, I don't believe at all that humans are assigned individual guardian angels. It makes for great stories, but I don't see any support for it in scripture. In fact, what I see in scripture indicates that they operate on more of a "zone defense" than "man-to-man coverage".

This quote made me think of the part of the Toast where ST is talking about "Catch the bell-wether and his whole flock comes after him." (p. 194) We see this happening in celebrity way too often for my liking. Young girls trying to be like Paris or Lindsey or whoever is in fashion at the moment. It does not take a great stretch of the imagination to see this "zone attack" taking place everyday. I can only pray that we do have guardian angels in any modality to direct us.
maralewisfan
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Thoughts on The Screwtape Letters

Postby Bluegoat » October 30th, 2009, 1:37 pm

I think I am pretty much on the same page as what archenland_knight wrote (except that I am a hardcore straight-up Anglican.)

I do think that demons have some kind of influence on us. Aside from the NT stuff that has already quoted, we also have Job, and I think perhaps most importantly, the account of the Fall. And it seems clear to me we don't have much idea how this works, but that there may be some things we can do to make ourselves less vulnerable to it.

I heard a very interesting man on the radio who could, he said, "see" angels. I am usually very suspect about such things, but I actually found him quite plausible (perhaps I am becoming a romantic in my old age?! :stunned: ). When he talked about it to the interviewer, he said it wasn't really like they are located in a place, but more like they have a place, or perhaps a person, in their attention. This is rather how I have come to think of it, and I don't see why it would be different for fallen angels.

But I think Lewis is quite correct when he says too little or too much attention on angels are equally dangerous.
User avatar
Bluegoat
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Nova Scotia


Return to Apologetics & Other Works

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 7 guests

cron