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is the white witch also the serpent?

is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby befren » 19 Jan 2006, 04:30

hi, just want to know if the white witch in book 2 is also the serpent or the queen of the underworld in the silver chair? wasn't she dead in the first great battle? how come? thanks! :??:
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re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby carol » 19 Jan 2006, 05:56

The book is called "The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe" or LWW for short.
(Few people here use the numbers and many do not like them)

The "woman" known as Jadis, who is the White Witch in this book, is not the same person as the Serpent of The Silver Chair.
You are right, the White Witch was definitely killed in LWW. The BBC made a bad mistake in giving the two roles to the same actress, making her look like the same person. (and some foolish publisher also put notes on one or more American editions, saying that they were the same person!!)

She could not, however, be the same person in stories written by a man who did not accept the idea of reincarnation!

There were some similarities- they were both evil, both seemed to be beautiful women, and neither was actually human.
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re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby Leslie » 19 Jan 2006, 15:48

Quoting from chapter 15 of The Silver Chair (boldface mine):

And now they all saw what it meant; how a wicked Witch (doubtless the same kind as that White Witch who had brought the Great Winter on Narnia long ago) had contrived the whole thing, first killing Rilian's mother and enchanting Rilian himself.


In Prince Caspian, just before Peter, Edmund, and Trumpkin arrive at Aslan's How, Nikabrik and his cohorts are preparing to conduct a seance to recall the White Witch from the dead.
"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
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re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby carol » 20 Jan 2006, 04:41

Yes, but that would be in the same way that people claim to bring back dead people these days in seances. Some people think it is the person, and others see it as being an evil spirit masquerading.

In Prince Caspian, they did not get the chance to try!
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re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby Erekose » 20 Jan 2006, 15:32

Query.. Why is Jaids regarded as being non-human?

The only s0-called evidence is the comments made by the Beavers. The equivalent of a medeival rustic repeating folk-lore about the lineage of an oppresive usurper to the throne. "He made a Deal with the Devil, and has become a Demon himself" sort of thing.

Jadis is described as being of human form, albeit somewhat taller and more "inspiring" than the norm, but that in itself would not make her "non-human".

yes, she comes from another world, but then the origin of "humans" on Charn is not explained.

If humans exist on/in Narnia (or are we to assume that the descents of Frank died out, and humanity was replaced by some non-human race that happens to look and sound human)?

from my personal perspective is more fitting that jadis indeed be of human descent, as this makes the "Evil" quality that much more poignant.

P.S. sorry if I hijacked the thread.

P.P.S. As far as \I'm aware there isn't anything to preclude the Green Witch from being a daughter of Jadis is there?
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Re: re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby Leslie » 20 Jan 2006, 15:37

carol wrote:Yes, but that would be in the same way that people claim to bring back dead people these days in seances. Some people think it is the person, and others see it as being an evil spirit masquerading.

In Prince Caspian, they did not get the chance to try!

Yes - and there is no question that the witch was generally known to be dead. This is the point that I was making with the PC reference.
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Re: re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby Erekose » 20 Jan 2006, 15:52

Sorry leslie.

it was a reply to something earlier which I should have quoted and not in reference to the seance comment.

As far as the seance goes, in my own humble opion I assume it would not have worked even if they had been able to attempt it.

Although (in a heretical viewpoint) a seance could possible be the means to open a portal between worlds and allow a sister (making the count 5 or 6.. getting cumbersome even for a heresy) to come through from another world, which could explain the Green Witch.
But thats just my Heretical Mind juggling options.
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re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby Leslie » 20 Jan 2006, 15:56

Now I'm confused.

I was responding to Carol's post, just to make it clear that the witch was dead. (ding, dong, etc.) ;)
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Re: re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby Stanley Anderson » 20 Jan 2006, 16:35

carol wrote:Yes, but that would be in the same way that people claim to bring back dead people these days in seances. Some people think it is the person, and others see it as being an evil spirit masquerading.


What if the White Witch, Jadis, and the Green Lady were all examples of an "evil spirit" all along and thus not subject to any limitations of, or non-existence of "reincarnation" as applied to "persons".

--Stanley
…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby Erekose » 20 Jan 2006, 16:49

carol wrote:There were some similarities- they were both evil, both seemed to be beautiful women, and neither was actually human.


Sorry again Leslie. This is what I was replying to.

Stanley Anderson wrote:
carol wrote::
Yes, but that would be in the same way that people claim to bring back dead people these days in seances. Some people think it is the person, and others see it as being an evil spirit masquerading.



What if the White Witch, Jadis, and the Green Lady were all examples of an "evil spirit" all along and thus not subject to any limitations of, or non-existence of "reincarnation" as applied to "persons".

--Stanley


Thats an interesting thought. But isn't it implied that the Royal House of Charn was (on the whole) turning towards a general lust for Power?

However that would be an interesting near parallel with Dr Weston?
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re: is the white witch also the serpent?

Postby nelsot5 » 04 May 2006, 05:19

if the white witch in book 2 is also the serpent or the queen of the underworld in the silver chair?


No, the White Witch is a different person than the Green Witch.
For proof you can read the Silver Chair and at the end of the Chapter The Parliment of Owls, there is the part where the storyteller owl has just finished telling Eustace and Pole the story of Prince Rillian, his Queen Mother and the green serpent. One of the owls tells Eustace and Pole a brief summary of the White Witch and how she bound Narnia in winter for many years. AND THIS IS THE KEY PART, the owls goes on to say, "and we think this may be one of the same crew."

Now I take "one of the same crew" to mean another separate Witch not the same White Witch. Crew implies more than one person does it not?

Hope this helps
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