Into the Wardrobe

Adam:
I have never stated nor implied that I think ecstatic experiences are "false"; what I've repeatedly said is that I don't think we can KNOW that these are literal interactions with God... I've said that in my opinion, these "interactions" are just as easily explained by the amazing capabilities of the Mind (combined sometimes with the personalities of people who tend toward what we might call "make-believe"...).

As for "relationship", there is just no clear way -- for my money -- to qualify what that even means: There are no patent similarities (unless you're prepared to play make-believe) between ANY kind of relationship that we have with humans (or animals) and a supposed "relationship" of the same kind with God... I cannot SEE Him; I cannot HEAR Him; I cannot TOUCH Him nor SMELL Him; I have no clue what He LOOKS like, nor precisely where in Time and Space He is LOCATED (indeed, by defintion God is OUTSIDE OF Time and Space!)... and yet I am told (by the evangelicals, mostly) that I can have a "relationship" with this Person??? Again, I just cannot see how we can possibly apply THAT word to a Person who so does NOT fit the normal criteria for that assignment...

How, then, you ask, does God even begin to work on the heart of a Man? Well, first by His own fiat... Saving Grace is a miracle and a profound mystery, one for which we do not have a sufficient explanation. All we can say is that we once were blind, and now we see, and our Scriptures tell us GOD did it. But being ACTED UPON by God is not the same thing as having a "relationship" with Him...

And I very much disagree with you that no "relationship" means "weak" Obedience! As we base our lives and our World View on the absolutes of Scripture, and as we practice the Spiritual Disciplines daily, in anticipation of one day literally seeing Him, that provides all the strength, motivation, and even increasing devotion that God requires.

And it's extremely telling to me that you don't find the concept of a "relationship with God" trumpeted from one corner of the Bible to the other; if such a wonderful thing were possible and even intended for believers on this side of eternity, wouldn't you see that theme cropping up everywhere in Scripture?? Well sure. But what we DO find is a call to Love, and to Obedience, and to Transformation. The ambiguous, self-generated concept of "relationship" is something fairly modern and, as I said, a diversion (IMHO) from the daily, practical, disciplined Walk of Faith.

John Anthony:
Once again, you've hit the nail on the head. Thank you for your comments.

:: I have never stated nor implied that I think ecstatic experiences are "false"; what I've repeatedly said is that I don't think we can KNOW that these are literal interactions with God... I've said that in my opinion, these "interactions" are just as easily explained by the amazing capabilities of the Mind (combined sometimes with the personalities of people who tend toward what we might call "make-believe"...).

If ecstatic experiences are a combination of those with a weak grasp on reality and the amazing capabilities of the mind, then it renders the claim implicit in the experience, that it is of God, false.

::As for "relationship", there is just no clear way -- for my money -- to qualify what that even means: There are no patent similarities (unless you're prepared to play make-believe) between ANY kind of relationship that we have with humans (or animals) and a supposed "relationship" of the same kind with God... I cannot SEE Him; I cannot HEAR Him; I cannot TOUCH Him nor SMELL Him; I have no clue what He LOOKS like, nor precisely where in Time and Space He is LOCATED (indeed, by defintion God is OUTSIDE OF Time and Space!)... and yet I am told (by the evangelicals, mostly) that I can have a "relationship" with this Person??? Again, I just cannot see how we can possibly apply THAT word to a Person who so does NOT fit the normal criteria for that assignment...

I speak with God, I receive answers through the words of others. I am angry with God, I receive rebuke or restoration through the actions of others. I cry out for God, and friends who have not seen me in a long time call me or drop by out of nowhere for no reason. I don't learn what God wants and do it; I interact with Him, and Him with me.

::How, then, you ask, does God even begin to work on the heart of a Man? Well, first by His own fiat... Saving Grace is a miracle and a profound mystery, one for which we do not have a sufficient explanation. All we can say is that we once were blind, and now we see, and our Scriptures tell us GOD did it. But being ACTED UPON by God is not the same thing as having a "relationship" with Him...

The motivation for grace is a divine mystery, but the means of grace is not. It is through relationship with God that He begins to work upon our heart, just as in relationship with my parents I learn to honor and obey them, and learn how to be instructed and encouraged by them, and in my relationship with my friends I learn to love and care for them, and they for me. As Saint Gregory of Nyssa says, we become that which we know, and we know He whom we love.

::And I very much disagree with you that no "relationship" means "weak" Obedience! As we base our lives and our World View on the absolutes of Scripture, and as we practice the Spiritual Disciplines daily, in anticipation of one day literally seeing Him, that provides all the strength, motivation, and even increasing devotion that God requires.

Read the desert fathers and tell me that strict obedience is possible without a relationship with God, that without the sight and touch of His grace such devotion is possible. I do not offer you theories, only my own experience of such a life, albeit briefly, and the wisdom of the fathers. Take them for what you will.

::And it's extremely telling to me that you don't find the concept of a "relationship with God" trumpeted from one corner of the Bible to the other; if such a wonderful thing were possible and even intended for believers on this side of eternity, wouldn't you see that theme cropping up everywhere in Scripture?? Well sure. But what we DO find is a call to Love, and to Obedience, and to Transformation. The ambiguous, self-generated concept of "relationship" is something fairly modern and, as I said, a diversion (IMHO) from the daily, practical, disciplined Walk of Faith.

In such a complex and multifaceted world of thought as our Scriptures, one can easily find exactly what one seeks. You say that you do not find the concept of relationship with God in the Bible, I say that the very concept of the Mosaic and Davidic covenants were a relationship, a correspondence, an interaction, which created a bond between God and man that was unconditional and participatory. In Pauline doctrine we find the idea of the Body, a relational community, as the source of strength and peace, the manifestation of God's Spirit, and the exercise of grace. In the words of Christ in John we hear that to obey we must first know, that to love we must first realize that we are beloved. The relationship between God and man permeates Scripture when you have the eyes to see it.

In fact it is virtue apart from relationship, love and obedience and transformation apart from participation and interaction, which is modern, that late greek and humanistic philosophy which denounces the desires of the heart and lauds the practice of virtue because it lacks the discernment to see the heart.

If God did not first love us, not in theory or mystery but manifest and revealed in something as low as God made incarnate, then we could not love God, could not even begin to obey. Relationship is not a distraction, it is the only means by which obedience is possible, or else we attribute to man a strength which we do not have, and deny God the strength which He does have and indeed has offered to us.