This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby jo » September 18th, 2005, 8:49 am

Hi Malcolm,

I moved this here as AL seems to feel we were hijacking his thread ;) (he was right too :grin: ). Anyway, I know these sorts of subjects should be approached with caution because otherwise they turn just into a round of Catholic bashing and/or Protestant bashing. However, I'd be interested to see you expand further on your claim that Protestantism is heretical.

It would prolly help if we had an exact definition of heretical to work with first :)

I'm totally neutral on this one, not being Christian (and in fact being from a non practising Catholic family), but it struck me that your claim was very sweeping and possibly thoughtless.
"I saw it begin,” said the Lord Digory. “I did not think I would live to see it die"

User avatar
jo
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 5167
Joined: Aug 1999
Location: somewhere with lots of pink

Re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby mjmann » September 18th, 2005, 9:56 am

Hello Jo,

I take my definition of heresy from my dictionary:

Heresy
1a. An opinion contrary to the orthodox tenets of a religious body
b. the act of maintaining such an opinion
2. any belief that is or is thought to be contrary to official or established theory
3. adherence to unorthodox opinion
(see also link below)

I contend that Protestantism entered into heresy by advocating the doctrines of Bible alone and faith alone and by denying a number of teachings of the Church, for example, the authority of the Pope, that Christ is present in the Holy Eucharist, the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass, that five of the seven sacraments are sacraments at all and by denying the authority of the Church.

Further Reading: JA's link to the Catholic Information Network: http://www.cin.org/users/msmith/reforma ... esies.html (gives more information about definition of heresy in the religious context as well.)
mjmann
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Aug 2005

Postby jo » September 18th, 2005, 10:08 am

"I saw it begin,” said the Lord Digory. “I did not think I would live to see it die"

User avatar
jo
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 5167
Joined: Aug 1999
Location: somewhere with lots of pink

Postby AllanS » September 18th, 2005, 9:39 pm

User avatar
AllanS
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Hobart Tasmania

Postby magpie » September 19th, 2005, 4:02 pm

"Love is the will to extend one's self in order to nurture one's own or another's spiritual growth."
M. Scott Peck

Member of the Religious Tolerance Cabal of the Wardrobe
User avatar
magpie
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1096
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Minnesota

Clear as mud

Postby mjmann » September 19th, 2005, 5:42 pm

Hi Jo,

Bible Alone (or, Sola Scriptura): The belief that ‘Scripture is the only infallible rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

Faith Alone (or, Sola Fide): The belief that ‘it is on the basis of their faith [alone] that believers are forgiven their [sins] rather than on the basis of good works which they have done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

Regarding the various Church teachings that I mentioned: Yes, it could certainly be argued that the Bible does not support Catholic teaching in these respects. That is why the Reformation took place – at least in Europe.

You ask lots of questions at one. Let me know if I have not got your point or just missed anything out:

The Catholic Church (and, I should say, the Anglican communion) understands the authority of the Bible as coming from the fact that it was written with divine inspiration; that it is ‘God breathed’.

The Catholic Church does not believe that every doctrine must ‘come from the Bible’ in the sense of it needing to be clearly explicated there in order to be valid. Hence, the various Marian doctrines; you won’t find a passage that says ‘and at the end of her life, Mary was assumed into heaven, sixty years after her immaculate conception’ (Matt 28:21).

But this does not mean it believes in the adding of extra-Scriptural doctrine to the deposit of the faith. It believes in the twin pillars of Bible and Tradition. Hence, it believes in the validity of doctrine that is rooted in Scripture, but which comes to be clearly explicated through Tradition.

By-the-by it is not only Marian doctrines that are ‘rooted’ without being clearly explicated in the Bible – that most central Christian doctrine, the Trinity, is likewise rooted without being clearly explicated.

The Catholic Church does not teach that God has given us any new revelation since the Bible was written (although it would not put it in those terms. Rather, she wd say that God has not given us any new revelation since the death of the last apostle – John). However, it would only be in heresy in the way you suggest if it upheld the doctrine of ‘if it isn’t in Scripture, it isn’t legitimate’, which it doesn’t, at least, not in the way that you suggest.
mjmann
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Aug 2005

Postby Robin » September 19th, 2005, 5:48 pm

I'm Catholic and I don't consider protestants as heretics, my understanding of heresy is denying one of the basic tenets of Christianity and these tenets can be found in the Apostle's creed. Didn't the Church consider protestants as "seperated brethren" in Vatican II?
Robin
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Glendale, CA

Postby John Anthony » September 20th, 2005, 5:07 am

John Anthony
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: California

Postby hana » September 20th, 2005, 5:38 am

previously on the list as hapahana/hanachiyo/hannah. joined in early '99.
User avatar
hana
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Mar 2005

Postby jo » September 20th, 2005, 10:31 am

Just wanted to put an acknowledgement of the replies I have received so people know I am going to get back to them but don't actually have time to do it now :)
"I saw it begin,” said the Lord Digory. “I did not think I would live to see it die"

User avatar
jo
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 5167
Joined: Aug 1999
Location: somewhere with lots of pink

Postby mjmann » September 20th, 2005, 5:22 pm

mjmann
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Aug 2005

Postby mjmann » September 20th, 2005, 6:06 pm

mjmann
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Aug 2005

Re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby hammurabi2000 » September 20th, 2005, 9:10 pm

User avatar
hammurabi2000
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Aug 2005

Re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby robsia » September 20th, 2005, 9:30 pm

User avatar
robsia
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3732
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Incognito no longer

Postby John Anthony » September 20th, 2005, 11:25 pm

John Anthony
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: California

Next

Return to Religion, Science, and Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 64 guests