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"The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

"The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Stanley Anderson » October 13th, 2005, 5:09 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Genie » October 13th, 2005, 6:26 pm

Totus tuus

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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby robsia » October 13th, 2005, 7:40 pm

Well, there is a such a thing as 'self-awareness', which is a little different and arises in toddlers at around 18 months.

There is a easy test which is to put a smear of lipstick (or other similar thing) on a toddler's nose and then, later, when (s)he has forgotten about it, to show them a mirror. If they look at the mirror and reach up to touch the lipstick, then they realise it is them in the mirror. This means they are self aware.

Some animals are self-aware also, such as the higher apes.
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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby John Anthony » October 14th, 2005, 7:54 pm

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Re: re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Air of Winter » October 14th, 2005, 10:30 pm

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Re: re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Kolbitar » October 16th, 2005, 10:48 pm

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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby John Anthony » October 17th, 2005, 2:46 am

Well, Jesse, you’ve given me a lot to think about–and I’m a very slow thinker.

I feel a perplexity about the matter of subject/object (and self/other and mind/matter) that I have not yet been able to translate into questions which adequately address the feeling of perplexity. Maybe I’ll succeed in doing this eventually, maybe not.


As to your question ‘Will your “ultimate reality” be one which denies change, denies permanence, or which accepts both these facts of experience?’, I suspect that this matter has considerable connection with the matters I’ve alluded to. Any satisfying insight into subject/object will probably carry with it some view of being/becoming. But it’s the subject/object perplexity which now engages my attention because it rises immediately from my day to day experience. The being/becoming matter seems more remote, more ‘philosophical’. At least, at this point it does.
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Re: re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Kolbitar » October 17th, 2005, 10:24 am

::As to your question ‘Will your “ultimate reality” be one which denies change, denies permanence, or which accepts both these facts of experience?’, I suspect that this matter has considerable connection with the matters I’ve alluded to.

I think you're absolutely correct.

In realism, it surprised me to find, it's a bit of a maxim that in knowledge the knower and known become one -- yet they don't loose their identity.

If you can find the time to read it, I'll post a link that might be helpful to you...

http://www.cts.org.au/1998/woodburyonknowledge.htm

There's more at that link as well...

Sincerely,

Jesse
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Re: re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby John Anthony » October 17th, 2005, 4:14 pm

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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Conrad » October 20th, 2005, 5:16 am

This is a topic that's always fascinated me as well. Something so fundemental, and yet not completely understood. I can't help but wonder though, if exactly what we do need is "more evidence, more experimental and clinical data" to discover the answer. The main problem I think, is that I'm not so sure that many people are even looking for it (perhaps they are though, and I just don't know about it).
If there is something inside your brain that is conscious, then surely it can be discovered and studied. If you break it down, something, on some level is using chemicals or electomagnetic impulses or something that is "really" there that provides the consciousness. Perhaps it is "something" not exactly INSIDE, but acting upon from without (your soul too, if you make the distinction at all). Perhaps this something is neither matter nor energy, but some other type of thing, well, as we only have matter and energy to work with this would surely be something difficult to detect at all, much less study, but perhaps not.
If it can affect your brain, then it must be connected somehow, there must be some way that this thing can interact with matter. Somehow, consciousness and/or souls interact with the physical world. The brain is perhaps the one place where such a thing can be studied at all. To begin with for sure and perhaps only (who knows where such knowledge could lead) it could be studied as an astronomer studies planets or stars or black holes or what-have-you that he can't detect any exact emisions from. But he can see what effect they have on the things that he can observe, the effect of gravity on some other star or planet shows that there's something there, even if he can't see it. There must be some part of the brain that can send and receive some sort of communication to the part that is not part of the physical world as we understand it (if it is not just the brain in the first place).
Surely, that can't tell us much about the nature of consciousness right away, but it is a starting point; if you want to study about the unperceivable the best way to go about it is to see how it reacts with something that you can understand. From there you at least have a chance to discover the true nature of what is your consciousness. I may think, and therefore I am, but what exactly am I? To me anyway, I'm sure not everyone is as interested, the science behind the exact nature of consciousness and even more so of the soul is one of the most intriguing questions that I believe "more evidence, more experimental and clinical data" may one day provide us with.
Whenever anyone says "I can't," it makes me wish he'd get stung to death by about ten thousand bees. When he says "I'll try," five thousand bees. ("I can," one bee.)
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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Zeuxis » January 5th, 2006, 12:41 pm

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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Robert » January 6th, 2006, 3:37 am

[I am] Freudian Viennese by night, by day [I am] Marxian Muscovite

--Robert Frost--
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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Polarbeast » January 7th, 2006, 2:00 am

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re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby John Anthony » January 7th, 2006, 3:16 am

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Re: re: "The Hard Problem of Consciousness"

Postby Kolbitar » January 8th, 2006, 4:04 am

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