Christian Traditions

[sstanek14]

[Simmer Jr]

Dear sstanek,
How are ya. Im not sure if im replying in context to your question but here is my reply. We as christians need to be Critically Loyal to Church history, and all denominations. In other words we need to respect the fact, that most of what we believe, and adhere to has been formulated 1000's of years before we ever entered into existance. Being critically loyal means to cling to the sound biblical doctrines that past churches/denominations have shaped for us, and simply ignore the matters that Paul once called "matters of indiference". There are also doctrines in the past that we obviously know were destructive, and not Spirit led and from theses mistakes we need to learn not to make them again. So bassically you can take Good foundations out of all Denominations, and churches of the past, and use them for the simple purpose of making a church strong for spreading the Gospel.

God Bless

[mjmann]

Hello Sstanek,

Welcome to the Forum. Your post was a very interesting one - here is what I would reply, as a member of the Catholic Church.

You mentioned how the Catholic radio station spoke of the '"correctness" and "authority" of the Catholic Church over Protesents.' and juxtaposed that against what Jesus said about the salvation of anyone who came to Him.

The first thing I would do is query whether the Catholic radio station really referred to 'Protestants'. I would be surprised if it did as this would have unnecessarily personalised the issue of Where The Truth Lies. But if it did, I would say that it should have spoken of Protestantism, instead.

In that light, I come to the question of "Who is right?" - Jesus or the Church. Well, I would say that both are. The reason I say this is that I do not believe that the issue of who is correct or who has authority over the other is a salvific one. That is to say, one's salvation is not assured simply by being a Catholic or a Protestant Christian and thus being on the right side in terms of correct belief and authority. As a Catholic, I do believe that the teaching of the Church in matters of faith and morals is correct; that where Protestant Christian teaching departs from it, it is Protestantism that is likely to be in error. Equally, I believe that it is the Church - not Protestantism - that has the authority (of Jesus) to teach in His name. These beliefs, however, must be balanced against the words of St Paul - if I have not love, I am nothing. All the right belief in the world is nothing against whether I love, because if I don't, I have not come to Christ and my salvation - if not fatally wounded - is in jeopardy.

You asked 'if knowing Christ and being a witness to his Life in my life are of prime importance, how can any denomenation be "wrong"?'
It depends on what you mean by 'wrong'. Any Christian church or community that preaches Christ crucified and risen is right in its essential belief. However, it can be wrong in its explication of that belief. This would be my criticism of Protestant theology. It would, of course, be Protestantism's criticism of the Catholic Church.

You mentioned that the Catholic radio station 'said that only Catholics have the authority to interpet Scripture and make Chruch law concerning daily life. Yet, even Catholics encourage daily devotion to the Bible. Also, did not Jesus condemn the Pharisess for concentrating more on their tradition than on God's Message?'
A couple of points:
i. The Catholic Church teaches that she is the final authority in (the teaching of) matters of faith and morals, including Scripture and Church (Canon) Law. I speak under correction here, but I am not sure that she would have a position on the authority of Protestant Christians to interpret Scripture (obviously they have no right to make Church Law). She would certainly affirm their right to do so. Perhaps she would say that Protestant Christians have authority to do so by virtue of their faith but it would not be an authority that was equal to her own.
ii. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for concentrating more on human traditions, rather than God's message. There is such a thing as sacred tradition.

Finally, you asked, 'If the Catholic Church is the only "right" tradition, do Protesents do no good in God's eyes.'
As I mentioned above, all the right belief in the world doesn't matter a whit if one does not love. And indeed, one may be wronger than wrong in one's beliefs and still be close to God. Therefore, I would affirm very firmly that of course Protestant Christians can do good in God's eyes. As I mentioned on another thread, the problem for me with Protestantism is not that it cuts them off from God but that its wrong theology affects adversely the channels of grace for believers. If you would like to read that thread, click . My contribution is at the bottom of the page. Turn the page to read the responses.

God bless you,

Malcolm

[Pete]

Malcolm,

I'm just wondering what you mean by "Marian devotion"? (which you refer to in the thread you gave the link to) Also why are you concerned about "lack" of it?

It's just, I don't believe it's as "lacking" as you make it sound in the protestant church. We certainly acknowlege the incredible and awesome calling from God she was given! And we see her as a person called by God and she had such a willing and obedient heart towards that calling...

Also, if I may add my bit to the whole discussion on traditions, I firmly believe that denominational traditions and the denominations themselves have served to weaken the Truth of God's Word and to water it down (for want of a better description), the necessary and only truly and completely important doctrines (I believe) can be found only in the Word of God.

Blessings,
Pete

[sstanek14]

Malcom,

Thanks for your reply. The radio station I was listening to made some of the same claims you did. I do not have a problem with the Catholic Church, but rather, am very confused to what the Bible teaches and what Catholic Dogma teaches. Now, in so far as I understand it, the Catholic Church can make church law which is based on what Jesus told Peter. These laws, none of which I have read personally but only experience in my Junior theology class at a Catholic high school, are based on Scripture and centuries of in-depth thought and analysis. The biggest problem I have, and indeed where my confusion comes in, is how any denomination, and I am including Protesants, can claim that an interpertation is more correct than another. The arguement can come down to translating the Greek and Aramaic texts and then what meaning these texts have for humans. Since "correctness" cannot be proved in the interpertation, that is, the "hidden" meaning of the text cannot be scientifically proven, in so far as humans "have" the answer. Now I know I am probably overgenerlizing here and I do not wish to stoke the fires of a flaming theard. I love all Christians and recognize them as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I do not have any desire to "convert" Christians to different tradtions. I certainly do not understand what a Methodist is since my Church does not dwell on this but rather on a personal relationship with Jesus and encouraging that enrichment within other people through classes and fellowship. I don't understand this debate between the Catholics and "the rest of us". If we all recognize Jesus as the True Messiah, the Savior and Judge of all Creation, does it really matter, I mean will God accuse us of not belonging to the "right" tradition (none of us honestly know that answer), which tradition we belong to? Lewis describes Christianity as a hallway in which there are different doors leading to different rooms. Lewis goes further stating that we are not to judge the different rooms themselves but find one that best agrees with us and not judge people for staying in the hallway or not coming into our room. After all, when one becomes a Christian, one realizes that there are aspects of his or her life that are in direct contradiction to the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. As far as I can tell, all Christian traditions teach the same ideology. The difference lies in the structure of tradition, i.e., the methods in which the teachings are presented. All traditions are in danger of being influenced by Satan, even Catholic Churchs, that may say that Homosexuality is ok, or that getting drunk is perfectly acceptable because we are x... Individuals make up the Church. All individuals are humans which are imperfect since the fall of Adam. Anything that man creates, therefore, is imperfect, and is subject to having flaws; I honestly think this applies to every human tradition and institution. Malcom, I know you will cite Sacred tradition to this, but even my Church encourages confession and communion, traditions that Jesus laid down.

May the Light of Christ be with you all.

Sean[/i]

[mjmann]

[mjmann]

Hi Sean,

Thank you also for your reply. I think we need to clarify our terms. When I talk about Church Law, I am talking about Canon Law. These are the rules and regulations of the Church. It isn't nice having to have rules and regulations and it seems especially wrong for a Christian organisation to have them, given that it smacks of legalism; however, I am sure you will agree that unless we want chaos we can't really do without them. If you have insomnia and would like help getting some sleep, you can read . Now, while I am sure that Canon Law is inspired by Scripture, it isn't dogma. Canon Law can be changed as necessary. Catholic dogma, on the other hand, can't be. From what you say, it sounds like you are referring to Catholic dogma when you talk of Church Law. That's fine, but we had better clear the matter up in case we end up at sixes and sevens with each other.

Regarding Catholic dogma - or Catholic doctrine in general - the Church declares her authority to teach what she does on the basis of Jesus' making St Peter the rock on which the Church would be built. You will be aware that there are different intepretations of the passage "You are the rock and on this rock I will build my Church" but the Catholic one is that it refers to Peter and his successors.

So, you said, 'The biggest problem I have, and indeed where my confusion comes in, is how any denomination, and I am including Protesants, can claim that an interpertation is more correct than another.'
My answer would be that if God had not given His assurance that His Spirit would remain with the Church till the end of time, then the Church would have no justification for saying that its interpretation of Scripture was any better than anyone else's. The reason being that no authority had imparted his authority for anyone to make such a statement. However, I believe that it happened and that the event when it happened was recorded and so first by oral tradition and then in the written witness of the Gospel the Church has believed ever since that God gave her His Holy Spirit to guide her in the truth.

You said, 'If we all recognize Jesus as the True Messiah, the Savior and Judge of all Creation, does it really matter, I mean will God accuse us of not belonging to the "right" tradition (none of us honestly know that answer), which tradition we belong to?'
I would say it does and it doesn't matter if we belong to a 'wrong' tradition: It does matter if we remain in a church that we know to be in the wrong about God because then we become complicit in the spreading of a lie. It doesn't matter in the sense that if we remain in a church - even a wrong one - through good faith, then God will understand that. He may not let us off lightly in Purgatory, but I do not believe He will reject us. The most serious thing that will happen is that insofar as our church teaches error we will be prevented from knowing God as we might and so our journey to final salvation becomes more difficult as the channels of grace close off. This can apply to Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Non Conformist churches and all. In this case, we have cause to be very thankful for the prayers of our fellows and, ultimately, that God is a very persistant God and does not confine Himself to meeting us in doctrines alone.

You said, 'As far as I can tell, all Christian traditions teach the same ideology. The difference lies in the structure of tradition, i.e., the methods in which the teachings are presented.'
If by 'Christian traditions' you are thinking of mainstream traditions and if by 'ideology' you mean essential belief about Jesus Christ, I would agree.
However, I would not agree about where the difference lies. It goes deeper than structure for the traditions have differences of understanding. A case in point would be the Blessed Virgin Mary, whom I mentioned in my post above. The Catholic Church believes that Mary was sinless, had one child, is the queen of heaven, is the greatest of the Saints, is able to intercede for us in our prayers, has appeared to various people throughout history and may well be doing so to this day (in Medjugorie). There will not be many Protestant churches which believe likewise. At the root of this divergance of belief is a different understanding - of the figure of Mary in Scripture.

You said, 'All traditions are in danger of being influenced by Satan, even Catholic Churchs, that may say that Homosexuality is ok, or that getting drunk is perfectly acceptable because we are x... Individuals make up the Church.'
May I clarify something once more? There is only one Catholic Church. There are many Catholic churches, but that is a different matter. I agree with what you say about the dangers that the traditions face. With the exception of Mary, I also agree that, 'All individuals are humans which are imperfect since the fall of Adam. Anything that man creates, therefore, is imperfect, and is subject to having flaws; I honestly think this applies to every human tradition and institution.'

MJM

[Pete]

[mjmann]

[Pete]

[sstanek14]

[The Seventh Son]

[Stanley Anderson]

[The Seventh Son]

[robsia]