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Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same old same

Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same old same

Postby Adam » January 7th, 2006, 12:25 am

BY ROBERT

How about the ontological argument…Adam…Jesse

1.) There is a greatest being thinkable
2.) This Greatest Being Thinkable is God
3.) This thought exists in the mind.
4.) Being that this Greatest Being Thinkable would not be as such, which is inconceivable, if it existed in the mind alone, since that which exists outside of the mind is greater, then it can not exist in the mind alone but also in reality.
5. ) Thus, God must exist in reality as well as the mind.

To buttress this argument of St. Anselm, let us take each part of the argument and analyze it. But, before we do this it is important to understand that this is a deductive/a priori. However, we will look at inductive/.a posteriori aspects of each point.

1.) Although some may argue there needn’t be a greatest ‘anything’ thinkable on the basis that what is greatest in one mind is different for all, this does not discount the fact that there is a greatest being thinkable, since if there were not, at least conceptually and on an abstract level, then no one would understand what these words mean

2.) This is in two parts.
a.) Criticism one: The Greatest Being Thinkable needn’t be God, for some could view it as the universe or the four forces, or (fill in the blank).--However, the problem with this rebuttal is that all of these things that one may view as being the Greatest Being Thinkable must consider whether it would be even still better that this thing were a conscious being. In that, consciousness, knowledge and the like improve a thing’s status, then such appeals are unfounded. So such a being must be what we think of as God.
b.) Criticism two: What of the idea that ‘God’ as most see the term in reference to is probably like some Freudian shadow of some unrequited love from a father or mother, to where, the term refers to a reflection or metaphor for something else. In other words, God is a word that symbolizes not something in its own right, but a form of mental transference.—If this were the case, then all cases where individuals had better relationships with their parents, siblings, etc. would prove a decline in God ideas, but it does not.

3.) Criticism: The idea of God may not be an idea conceived of in the individual’s mind, but a social convention of a particular culture.--But, if this were the case, then the evolution of the idea of God would be ‘choppy’ sociologically. This is not the case, since all cultures, whether formally or informally, have God talk and ideas about a God ‘crop’ up.

4.) Criticism: What is in the mind needn’t exist in reality. There are many scraps of mental fodder that aid one in thinking, but are not representative of actually existing things.—This is true, but what is it that divides reality from merely mental categories and structures? Clearly not just the fact that it is non-physical. We assume that many structures (time, space, reason, etc…) exist in reality. The reason is is that these mental structures are not just experienced by the experiencer, but by other experiencers, or all experiencers. With this in mind, the mental structure of a Greatest Being Thinkable as being something that is conceived by all, although not conspicuously, lends ontological legitimacy to its existence in the real world.[/b]
Last edited by Adam on January 7th, 2006, 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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re: Ontological Argument for God

Postby Adam » January 7th, 2006, 12:26 am

BY ADAM IN RESPONSE TO ROBERT

My first criticism is of the first proposition regarding the measure of greatness. There exists an unresolvable dichotomy between tribal and universal morality (a dichotomy patterned after, but somewhat distinct from, Nietzsche's master and slave morality); tribal morality includes courage, honor, loyalty, vengeance, jealousy, purity, holiness; universal morality includes humility, lowliness, equality, mercy, compassion, charity, sacrifice; the great frustration of modern society is the difficulty maintaining a balance between the two set of ideals while simultaneously maintaining a balance between the two ways of living. "Greatness" defined as excellence in all categories of virtue is absurd, because virtues are contradictory and must be balanced.

My second criticism is of the fifth proposition regarding a confusion between nature and existence. A mind can conceive various orders or categories of existence, but it can do nothing to prove the existence of any being within that order or category. If we have an experience which overwhelms the physical order, a sensation which our physical body cannot contain which causes it to weep or shake, then we can imagine another plane of existence beyond our senses, but we cannot prove a personal existence upon that plane. That is, we can always reason what a God may look like were He to exist, but we can not but take a leap of faith regarding His actual existence.

Peace.
Adam
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re: Ontological Argument for God

Postby Adam » January 7th, 2006, 12:26 am

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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re: Ontological Argument for God

Postby Adam » January 7th, 2006, 12:28 am

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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re: Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same old s

Postby Robert » January 10th, 2006, 1:40 pm

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re: Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same old s

Postby Polarbeast » January 10th, 2006, 6:39 pm

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re: Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same old s

Postby Robert » January 11th, 2006, 4:11 am

First of all, we are talking about the greatest being thinkable, not ‘a’ greater being thinkable than one from another. A greatest is a special case, that sets it apart from instances of greater possible beings.

Secondly, a creature that is created by the mind, such as a centaur or a faun, is not the greatest being thinkable, but merely a possible being that ‘could’ be defined as greater if it were conceived of as existing in reality as opposed to existing in a mental state. But, is it greater if it were to exist in reality? I propose not, because it is its fancifulness and extraworldliness that makes it so interesting as a creature. If it did exist, I doubt it would excite such marvelous stories. So, it is greater that it exist only in the mind.

You say that belief in things that are massively shared is not grounds for truth. If it is not, then what is? I have always been under the assumption that the truth of any claim is more firmly established by witnesses. If I saw it and everyone else did, then it was not just ‘in my mind’. This is not to say that fauns exist just because perhaps many cultures say they do, but rather that the desire to see something extraordinary necessarily implies that extraordinary, extra-physical things do exist.

You seem to appeal to the mind as some sort of analyzable organ that functions in a particular manner that is representative of the physical world. If this were the case, then how do you analyze it, with your mind? It would be like trying to view a telescope, to make sure that it was functioning properly, by viewing it through the telescope. This is a most awkward, and logically impossible, feat. Unless one is convinced that all that exists is the physical universe. If so, how can one say this is the case? Why all of this physical chauvinism, refusing to accept mental phenomena as legitimate ontologically existing facets of reality. The mind is not some mirror of the physical, for if it were, as I just made the case against such a conclusion, then we couldn’t even speculate about it. The universe might as well be the mind.

By the way, I went to your website and saw your profile, interesting, it says you have a buzzed hair cut and a long goatee, so do I. Strange huh. Except, my tatoos are on my forearms and are in Latin, and I have some strange piercings on my face. As well, noticed you liked some Metal. Was wondering if you noticed my avatar. If you have ever heard of the Haunted, that is the singer, Peter Dolving, from the hardcore, metal core band-they are a cross between the Black Dahlia Murder and Slayer.
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Re: re: Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same o

Postby Polarbeast » January 11th, 2006, 10:41 pm

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re: Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same old s

Postby Robert » January 12th, 2006, 2:25 am

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Re: re: Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same o

Postby Adam » January 12th, 2006, 3:37 am

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re: Ontological Argument for God (con. from "same old s

Postby Robert » January 16th, 2006, 2:02 pm

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