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Heaven and Unborn Children

Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 20th, 2006, 2:11 am

I want to start this with a disclaimer. I do not mean to be too personal, or to hurt anyone's feelings. I respect the fact that this post may run a little too close to home for some, especially women.

When I was a student at Bible college, my Survey of Doctrine professor brought up the topic of unborn children, Heaven, and the "age of understanding". He said that many Christians believe that children who are miscarried or who die before a certain age are automatically granted entrance into Heaven. The only verse, he said, that people had to support this was 2 Samuel 12:23 -

“But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

This verse is concerning his son who had died due to David's sin with Bathsheba. According to him, this is not necessarily talking about David going to Heaven, but could simply say that his son will not return to life, but that David will one day, himself, die. He also said that he is unsure where this idea of an "age of understanding" came from. He said that he has found no basis for it in Scripture, and to be honest, I cannot find one either.

His conclusion was that he would not say for sure what happens to unborn children, as he did not have all the answers, but that he could not say with certainty that he believe young and unborn children who passed away would be in Heaven.

He said that humans are not sinners because they sin, but that we are sinners by nature. From the moment of conception we are fallen. We know that the unregenerate man cannot enter into God's presence, so why should this fundamental truth not apply to children? If it is true that young children who die go to Heaven, than why do we get so angry over abortion. If what we're saying is true then those children are going to Heaven anyway and we don't have to worry about whether they will come to know Christ or not.

I thought my professor had some valid points, but I've yet to come to a final decision yet as to what I believe about this. I realize that this is a very personal and emotional thing, and as human beings this is an uncomfortable idea. I just want to know what other people here think. Has anyone heard any other evidence for the "age of understanding"? Once again, I don't want to step on any toes, and I'm not trying to tell any mothers that their unborn children are not in heaven. My best friend's mother miscarried one of her children, and I would never seek to ruin her hope by my speculation and rhetoric.
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Mornamoice » February 20th, 2006, 2:54 am

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Thank you for the pix, A# Minor!
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 20th, 2006, 3:10 am

That situation with the secret baptism would bother me too, Mornamoice.

And yes, I would agree that regardless of your stance on children going to Heaven, that abortion is wrong due to the fact that it is murder. But still, I would have to say that the Bar Mitzvah does not seem like a valid source of support to this topic. As far as I know, the Bar Mitzvah is not a command of the law. Correct me if I'm wrong. When I asked for evidence to support the idea, I meant Biblical evidence. I'm sorry, I should have been more clear.
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Tony » February 20th, 2006, 4:32 am

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Pete » February 20th, 2006, 4:39 am

I firmly believe an unborn child who dies does to go heaven, and personally, I think it's very right that we do hold that view (those of us who do, anyway). Clearly though, this is not something to do with the child itself, but to do with God. Now here's why I firmly believe that an unborn child does go to heaven if they die.

1. Because God is a loving God. Love is an essential part of His identity - it is who He is. And to let an unborn child who does not have the capacity to choose to accept Christ and His salvation, and thus, to send an unborn child who cannot make the decision to accept the salvation offer, to hell, this would be a very unloving thing to do and it doesn't fit with God's character or nature.

2. Because of the fact that God "knitted us to gether" in our mothers wombs. I think this can be suggests that we are near to God when we are in the womb. In fact there's three areas I'd venture to say that we are near to God. (1) in the womb, (2) when we accept the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ and (3) when we are with Him in eternity - the closest we can be to Him!

Why then, as you've asked, if I hold these views, do I believe abortion to be wrong? Firstly, because it is robbing the child of the choice to accept Christ's offer of salvation and Life in HIM. Secondly, because it is murder (in many cases - admittedly definitely not all - a point I'll come back to at the end of this post). Thirdly, because JESUS Christ is LIFE and God's plan for us is for us to walk in that Life which is Jesus. Abortion not only robs the child of the opportunity to make that choice, but it's also robbing God of His authority to call "time" on a person's physical life.

Now as I was saying, I said abortion is murder "in many cases", there's a couple of examples when murder (of course) would be a completely unfair label for it. Firstly, in the commonly given example (which is a relatively uncommon occurance) when it's a choice between the mother and baby's life. To label an abortion in this case as "murder" would be very wrong. The other example is a natural abortion (which my mother had, before I was born). In these cases though, I am still firmly convinced that the same applies - that God would not allow for those children to be sent to hell.

I am firmly convinced that I will one day, have the blessing of meeting the older brother I never met here on earth. Yeah, I've got two other older brothers, an older sister and a younger sister who are very much alive, but to suggest that the older brother of mine who didn't get the choice to accept Christ's salvation offer would be in hell - the idea does not sit well with me at all, and in fact, I'd suggest it's very unscriptural.
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 20th, 2006, 4:44 am

So, Tony, does that mean that if enough people believe or hope something to be true, that it is?

And yes, I believe if something is not found explicitly in Scripture that we should examine it and seek to prove or disprove it. It doesn't mean that we should outright deny it, but we shouldn't just accept it because a lot of people believe it to be true.

A lot of Christians used to believe very sincerely that the Earth was flat and was the center of the universe, until Galileo proved them wrong.
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 20th, 2006, 4:58 am

First of all, let me make myself clear: I do not support abortion! I said what I said as a rhetorical question.

Pete, I have to address what you've said here. First of all, I realize that this issue is very close to your heart and I do not wish to try and make you believe that your brother is not in Heaven. I am merely trying to examine a controversial issue. So let me play devil's advocate:

Firstly, what you said about God being a loving God is true. I do not disagree. But we also know that Justice is a fundamental part of His nature. Your line of thinking is similar to the universalist point of view that God will not send anyone to Hell because He is so loving.

So then I must ask, do you believe that a child who has not reached the "age of understanding" is regenerate in the eyes of God? If so, what Scriptures support that point of view? Also, this brings me to your point about an unborn child being close to God. Your point that we are "close to God" when we were knit together in the womb is a moot point. I believe God knits together all creatures, as all the processes of the universe are held up by the power of Christ. Personally, I believe that God is involved in every event of every person in this universe. If you disagree, please tell me. But if that is true, than that means His everyday dealings with people make them closer to Him.
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.

-C.S. Lewis

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Re: re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Pete » February 20th, 2006, 7:08 am

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 20th, 2006, 7:18 am

First of all, I don't think we're going to come to any sort of agreement because we differ on one key point. I believe that a child is a sinner and unregenerate before birth because they have inherited a sin nature, it is part of their being, and Christ can free us of this, making us righteous in God's eyes. You do not believe that the child is guilty already before birth, so I don't think we can come to agreement on this. If God rejected an unborn child it would be based on the fact that the child has a sinful nature, not because of anything his or her parents did. Perhaps the issue is not so black and white as that, but I would be hard pressed to compromise so much as to say that there are shades of grey when it comes to salvation.

I also don't quite agree that God has a much bigger part in our birth than in the rest of our lives. That would be like holding a partly deist philosophy, and I reject deism wholeheartedly. I believe God is involved in every moment of every person's life and is involved equally at every moment.

Also, I think you're taking John 10:10 out of context. In that chapter, Jesus seems to be talking about the elect. You notice that before that verse Jesus is talking about the sheep, which are the elect of Christ.
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.

-C.S. Lewis

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Pete » February 20th, 2006, 7:36 am

And you call the kind of "God" you're advocating, a "loving" God? :/ Personally, I wouldn't like to come across the God you're arguing for...

Phos, I have a question for you. If one has not acted, they cannot be considered an actor. If one has not sung, they cannot be considered a singer. If one has not taught, they cannot be considered a teacher.

How then, can an unborn baby who has not sinned be considered a sinner?

I completely accept the fact that the child has inherited a sinful nature but considering they are not actually sinners at that stage, it would be unjust and most definitely not in the nature of God to allow that person to be sent to hell.
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Re: re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Tony » February 20th, 2006, 2:02 pm

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby sehoy » February 20th, 2006, 2:42 pm

*hurl*

This is a discussion I always notice is carried about by men.

I'd like to see you tell [your wife/the mother] the baby's not going to heaven, and how very big of you to do it, too.
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Tony » February 20th, 2006, 2:48 pm

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Genie » February 20th, 2006, 2:53 pm

I believe my baby is a gift from God to me and my husband, if God takes the baby back, the baby would be with God. That's my very simple personal belief.
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby sehoy » February 20th, 2006, 3:22 pm

It's not a matter of winning or losing.

It's a knee-jerk reaction, on my part. I was reacting to the first post and specifically the bible teacher described in the first post.

And I'll explain why it angers me so much.

I was present when some callous young men destroyed the hope of a woman in this very manner in a discussion like this and used scripture to do it. I was so appalled, I still haven't gotten over it.

I also witnessed a family that had no place to put the dead baby, mentally, after the baby died, just before birth. I've never seen such a badly damaged family. It wasn't until the family had a way to mourn the baby and were given the hope that she was in heaven that they were able to start living again.

That anyone would ever speculate that a baby was anywhere but in heaven is inconceivable to me, but unfortunately I have witnessed such a thing, too many times.
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