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Heaven and Unborn Children

re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 21st, 2006, 2:39 am

First of all, Tony, what I'm trying to get across is that original sin, our sinful nature that we have before birth, makes us unacceptable to God. This is why a child may not be automatically saved.

Ephesians 2:3 - Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Our state as children of wrath is part of our very nature. We possess our nature before birth, no? Meaning that it is part of who we are fundamentally? Than that means before birth we are sinners. It is not our first sin that makes us sinners, but our nature.

And what do you mean that God the Father did not turn His back on His Son?!? What about:

Matthew 27:46 - About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI , ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

This is because Christ, bearing the sin of the world, was no longer one with His Father. This pain, of bearing our Sin and breaking fellowship with His Father, was the cup Jesus spoke of in the Garden of Gethsemane, not the physical pain of hanging on a cross. I was not making any assumptions.
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.

-C.S. Lewis

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Re: re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Kolbitar » February 21st, 2006, 3:19 am

:: Matthew 27:46 - About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI , ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

Phos, this is a quote of Psalm 22. Any Jewish person hearing it would automatically have the content of that Psalm come to mind. I can't imagine being present, hearing it come from a crucified man who claimed to be God--fitting the description of the man theirein described!

Jesse
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 21st, 2006, 3:37 am

Does everyone here think I'm not familiar with Scripture? I know this is a quote from the Psalms. I find your post a little confusing. I'm not sure what you meant. But Jesus said it because His Father had forsaken Him, and fulfilled a prophecy found in the Psalms. Unless you're saying He said it for no reason having to do with the phrase itself? Or do you think He said it for another reason?
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.

-C.S. Lewis

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby AllanS » February 21st, 2006, 4:19 am

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 21st, 2006, 5:02 am

Last edited by phos on February 21st, 2006, 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.

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Re: re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Tony » February 21st, 2006, 5:07 am

"The Church is the natural home of the Human Spirit."
-Hilaire Belloc
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby AllanS » February 21st, 2006, 5:17 am

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby AllanS » February 21st, 2006, 5:24 am

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Re: re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Tony » February 21st, 2006, 5:24 am

"The Church is the natural home of the Human Spirit."
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Tony » February 21st, 2006, 6:01 am

This is your argument, as far I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong.



I reject premise four because it is not a tenable thought that a non-cognitive being ought to do something a cognitive being should. That is, in a sense, "getting saved" or "being saved". The power of Judgment is God's alone, "vengeance is mine sayeth the LORD" --- how does a mere man decide if the LORD has opened the eyes of his creation by human standards of cognition? Not that the unborn child is guaranteed salvation -- but to guarantee damnation is unfounded.

Also, I question the authority of premise three. The Bible states that we are short of God's glory, yet there are examples aplenty of our capacity for both Good and Evil (re: Job).
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Last edited by Tony on February 22nd, 2006, 2:17 am, edited 7 times in total.
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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby phos » February 21st, 2006, 6:02 am

Tony, every sermon on the crucifixion by every evangelical Christian I've ever heard maintains that God the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross. Perhaps you're not evangelical, but that creates a huge breach between our arguing points. But either way, this isn't some huge doctrinal cultic proclamation. I know countless others in churches and schools across the country who agree with me.

But if it's not true, Tony, then I ask you again and again a thousand times, why did Jesus say "My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?!". Was He yelling it for no reason? Simply to randomly quote a Psalm? Why?

Secondly, about the comment about hopelessness. We know that the Bible talks about original sin. We know that once we sin once we are sinners by practice. But if before we commit our first sin we are blameless in the eys of God, what is the point of even mentioning original sin? If once we sin, we're condemned then for actual sin, why do the writers of Scripture even bring up inherited sin, if it doesn't matter by the time we're [i]actually]/i] sinners.
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Tony » February 21st, 2006, 6:12 am

I'd like to know exactly who endorses that view. Besides yourself and maybe some Calvinists.

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Re: re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Pete » February 21st, 2006, 6:22 am

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Re: re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby Kolbitar » February 21st, 2006, 11:36 am

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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re: Heaven and Unborn Children

Postby sehoy » February 21st, 2006, 11:57 am

phos,

Jesus was silent on what happens to babies who die before being baptized. Any conclusions you, or anyone else, come to will be speculation at best. Scripture will not help you here.

Even if you did prove conclusively by scripture, that babies who are not baptized when they die go to hell or limbo or whatever, if you ever said that to the mother or your wife [which I have also witnessed] I would be forced to beat you to a pulp if I were present. [No smiley face here.]

I would also like to add at this time, that this is a good example of the fear that the folks who do not believe in infant baptism live with daily. I have lived it. I have watched other parents live with that fear. I was a Baptist for twenty plus years and had had my children dedicated in the Baptist church. But it just ain't the same thing as infant baptism. I was always on the alert to perform an emergency baptism, if something happened to one of my children.

It wasn't until a week after I had my children baptized Catholic, that I realized a great fear and a great burden had been lifted from my shoulders. I wasn't even looking for relief from that fear, since I was not aware that I had been carrying it. But I was. I was always on alert for doing that emergency baptism.

Call me superstitious. Call me an idiot. Call me a corruption of Catholiscim and Baptist theology. I don't care what you call me. I can only tell you I have a peace now that I never had before about certain aspects of my childrens' eternal welfare.
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