Into the Wardrobe

Actually I always thought that too, that Jesus thought he was forsaken.

I was thinking about this some more, and thought of an analogy. My mother is dying from cancer, and is sometimes in great pain. She is receiving home hospice care, and has someone with her all the time. The nurses, God bless them, do all they can to keep her comfortable. Yet she will sometimes say "why isn't anyone helping me?" She understands, most of the time, that she's being loved and cared for. But when the pain is too great that knowledge is wiped away - she feels nothing but her agony. Now I know my mother isn't Jesus, but I see the same process at work in his cry from the cross.

Sorry, I should have clarified.

When I was a Christian, I always thought that Jesus only thought he had been forsaken by God.

Going back to the original topic:

Mark 10:13-16 (NIV) -- People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them, and blessed them.

People tend to say things like, "that means to have a childlike faith", and then happily interpret childlike faith to mean a faith that it silly, immature, shallow, or lacking in discernment. And they like it, because that's pretty easy. But that is patently not what Jesus said.

He said we must ,"...receive the kingdom of God like a little child..." How does a little child receive the kingdom of God? It is plain in Verse 14 that the kingdom belongs to "such as these", but how do they recieve it? For a little child, it is not through conscious conviction of their sins. There's some point at which that becomes possible, but many of the little ones are not there yet. It's not necessarily even through faith, because another group (infants, for example) are not even able to exercise faith. So they receive it, but how?

The answer is grace. It is given to them. Grace is given to little children before they are able to have faith. Grace is given to them before they are able to be convicted of their own sin. Grace is given to them before they can understand repentance. Jesus's point is that anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God through grace will not receive it. That is the only way in -- no works on our part will "qualify" us, and no level of "good behavior" is good enough. It is abundantly clear throughout the NT that salvation comes through grace. That is the point of Jesus's lesson (to the adults in his audience), and in delivering this lesson he answers the main question in this thread.

Pine

Let me addres Pine first. Pine, isn't it possible when Jesus said to recieve the Kingdom of God like a little child, that He could have meant recieve it like a little child would recieve it, or any other gift for that matter? With excitement, gratitude, unwavering trust? And also, I do not believe that having childlike faith means having a faith that is silly, immature, shallow, or lacking in discernment. Jesus told us to be as gentle as doves, and wise as serpents. A childlike faith means one that is not shaken, that trusts without doubting.

Secondly, I must ask a question. Did Jesus continue to be God while He was being crucified? If Jesus only thought He was forsaken, and was actually not, then that means either that:

A. God does not know everything at all times.
B. Jesus was not God, either at all, or just while being crucified.

If Jesus did continue to be God, and you do believe that God is omniscient, and if Jesus only thought He was forsaken, then that means God was wrong. And I don't want to approach that territory.

About infant baptism, I find no precedent for it in Scripture.

Hey again Phos.

::If Jesus only thought He was forsaken, and was actually not, then that means either that:
A. God does not know everything at all times.
B. Jesus was not God, either at all, or just while being crucified.

Or:

C. The divinity of Jesus was letting his humanity feel our dispair, thus he was expressing a feeling despite what he knew--as we often do.

You know my pick...

Jesse

Pine, we probably agree about a lot more than we disagree about.

Anyway, Tony, I like the argument progression you set forth. Basically, in a nutshell, that's what I'm saying.

The Bible doesn't seem to be explicit on the issue. It could very well be that God grants to the unborn child a special kind of grace. I don't see it in Scripture, but I'm sure there's a lot of things about God we don't see in Scripture. Like I said, Scripture doesn't seem to be explicit on the issue, but most of you have brought forth points that are at least as valid as mine, and God knows I don't want to believe that children do not see Heaven. I'd rather err on the side of hope. Please know that at no time during this debate did I hold the belief that children do in fact go to hell if they die; I just saw evidence for both sides and wanted to see what other people thought. Thank you everyone.