This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

Catholic view on modern heretics

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Adam » May 17th, 2006, 5:23 pm

:: Partialy agreed. Apostles, Paul in particular, were quoting Scripture to the Jews and pagan godfearers as the evidence that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and were expecting them to accept the Gospel and the ressurection based on Scripture. Apollos succesfuly did the same thing without the experience of christian life.
Apostles drew their conviction and boldness from expirence of ressurection but did not treat it as out-of-the-blue fenomenon which reforms the Scriptures.
I suspect that it is the apreciation for the Scriptures that can not be attained apart from the christian life and discipleship succesion, and thus also understood, not that they have no intelligibile spiritual message in them selves.

Until the resurrection, the apostles did not understand how the life and death of Jesus could make Him the messiah. Afterwards, they were so convinced by experience that they were willing to dramatically transform how they understood the Scripture so that it would conform to what they knew to be true by other means.

::I have pointed to a fact that quireleader of the apostles clearly thought otherwise; maybe I should have quoted him: "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -- things which angels desire to look into." (1.Pt 1:10-12)

Whether the prophets had knowledge of the hidden meaning or not, it cetainly was a hidden meaning, and there was a literal meaning which occupied it's Jewish audience for some time before the apostles unconvered a figural meaning.

::Rejection of the Messiah by the Jews was clearly understood by the apostles as judicial blindness and not as the unexplainable turn of events. Paul goes so far as to claim that in the end they will finally nationally accept Christ.
There is no unanimus aproach to the OT Scripture among the apostles that would allow your conclusion. The naked fact is that they quoted it, found it authorotative and relied upon it regardless of their expirience of Chritian life, which was sometimes quite mutually exclusive.

The Jews did not believe that Jesus was the messiah because He did not fulfill their interpretation of the Scripture.

The apostles didn't understand either, but all of them experienced the resurrection, and thus became convinced, then turned to the Scripture to see if they could reinterpret it to conform to what they knew by other means.

::No, I am not saying that man is to depraved to be reflecting God's fulfillment but am saying that regenerated man can reflect also un-Godly fullfillments. In some theological traditions this is called carnality. Distinction between the two is mastery that takes life time to acheeve, if even then. Scripture is the Sword that can separate them for us.

Scripture cannot interpret itself. And the spirit of man is either regenerate or not; it is either fit to interpret Scripture or it is not.
"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Josh » May 17th, 2006, 6:24 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
User avatar
Josh
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: So long and thanks for all the fish.

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Adam » May 17th, 2006, 6:30 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Josh » May 17th, 2006, 6:48 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
User avatar
Josh
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: So long and thanks for all the fish.

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Adam » May 17th, 2006, 7:15 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Josh » May 17th, 2006, 7:35 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
User avatar
Josh
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: So long and thanks for all the fish.

re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby AllanS » May 17th, 2006, 11:43 pm

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
User avatar
AllanS
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Hobart Tasmania

re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby WolfVanZandt » May 18th, 2006, 5:11 am

Adam, a simile is a figure of speech - therefore, figurative. Go look n a dictionary and save me the trouble of typing out the definitions here, will you?

Hell isn't punishment - it's God removing what doesn't belong to Him from His universe - and He has warned people very loudly in the New Testament - you just don't want to accept it - which is the point made in the Lazarus parable. You won't accept it under any circumstances short of being there. And the lost people who won't accept it will simply find out the hard way. Which is why the New Testament indicates that the great majority of people will follow the broad way and be lost.

And what Universalism does is tell people that they have no responsibility for their own salvation. THey don't need to make a choice - everyone will end up in heaven anyway. What a disappointment when they find out that they were given bad information.
WolfVanZandt
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Selma, Alabama

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Adam » May 18th, 2006, 5:35 am

[quote="WolfVanZandt"]Adam, a simile is a figure of speech - therefore, figurative. Go look n a dictionary and save me the trouble of typing out the definitions here, will you?

Alliteration is also a figure of speech. Do you suppose that makes them figural?

English is messy enough, I should think, without doing violence to it.

::Hell isn't punishment - it's God removing what doesn't belong to Him from His universe - and He has warned people very loudly in the New Testament - you just don't want to accept it - which is the point made in the Lazarus parable. You won't accept it under any circumstances short of being there. And the lost people who won't accept it will simply find out the hard way. Which is why the New Testament indicates that the great majority of people will follow the broad way and be lost.

Spend the rest of your life weeping, then, for the great many who will be lost, and maybe you will find wisdom in your tears.

What a cruel trick, for Him to teach me to love my neighbor as myself, and just when my hard and cruel heart was beginning to soften, the objects of my growing affection are torn from me to spend eternity being tortured. I should then be left to choose if I shall merely join them in spirit or in body as well.

At least they will perish. I have to spend the rest of eternity with the Great Executioner.

I can't believe in a God who makes me sick to my stomach. If that means I must be added to the rank and file who shall be marched off to hell, then so be it.

::And what Universalism does is tell people that they have no responsibility for their own salvation. THey don't need to make a choice - everyone will end up in heaven anyway. What a disappointment when they find out that they were given bad information.

Everyone must take responsibility, and everyone will. Everyone needs to make a choice, and everyone will make the right choice.

How strange to think that those who believe themselves closest to the truth of Christ, shall one day not only be surprised to discover that the people whom they condemned and excluded are present in the kingdom, but to actually find themselves disapointed at the discovery. The faithful son, indeed.
"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby WolfVanZandt » May 18th, 2006, 6:06 am

WolfVanZandt
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Selma, Alabama

re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby AllanS » May 18th, 2006, 6:28 am

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
User avatar
AllanS
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Hobart Tasmania

re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby WolfVanZandt » May 18th, 2006, 7:48 am

WolfVanZandt
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Selma, Alabama

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Boromir » May 18th, 2006, 9:37 am

Grown-ups are always thinking of uninteresting explanations.

Digory
Boromir
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Croatia

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Adam » May 18th, 2006, 3:15 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

Re: re: Catholic view on modern heretics

Postby Adam » May 18th, 2006, 3:18 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

PreviousNext

Return to Religion, Science, and Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 9 guests