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sola scriptura

re: sola scriptura

Postby postodave » September 27th, 2006, 12:37 pm

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re: sola scriptura

Postby rusmeister » September 27th, 2006, 2:16 pm

Hi postodave,
Let me clarify: by withdrawing, I mean ceasing to do lots of posting, and especially avoiding debate, because debate is only possible when a person is seeking truth. Otherwise it's just big headaches and going around in circles. Many of us probably spend more time than we ought on the computer, and I am no exception. I have a family, 3 kids.

But there are some great posters here, I especially get a kick out of Stanley (a very thoughtful and eloquent man, at least on paper), and Karen and Theo also write some really interesting stuff, and others as well. I can see dropping and and occasionally reading and posting, but feel that there's a limit to what I can do here.

Like I said, I've found a Church that has continued Apostolic tradition for 2,000 years. I would hesitate about making any categorical statements about it; certainly there have been scandals and breaks even in the Orthodox Church (the Old Believers, for example - speaking of which, I met some the other day and thought how stupid it is that we can't just all worship in the same church). But for me personally a huge litmus test is how much a church bends to accommodate the world, and frankly, everyone is doing it, that is, all churches, to greater or lesser degrees, have changed or in general actively modified their teachings, particularly over the last 150 years. Baptists more (I say this as an ex-Baptist) and Catholics much less.

Except the Orthodox Church.

I don't have all the answers; I'm a pretty simple guy. But I trust that the Church does have the answers. I would pose your thoughts about Maximus to people who've spent more time studying this and know where to find the answers, which the Church already has.

I find it totally illogical that believers with a mere 20, 40, or 60 years of experience could find those answers, often not knowing ancient Greek and Hebrew (or other foreign languages period), or specifics of the cultures in which the Scriptures were written, or how translations affect interpretation of Scripture, yet many people believe in their own self-sufficiency to interpret Scripture. One dinky example - what does the word "brother" mean in those ancient languages, or even modern ones such as Russian? This is one of the bases on which people assert that Mary had other children after Jesus. Yet I know from my own experience that in many Eastern languages, 'brother' also includes cousins, literally. I have to struggle (I teach English to little Russian kids using only English) to get it clear to kids that in English, 'brother' and 'sister' does NOT include cousins. This makes it clear to me why you can't just take Bible verses and assume you fully understand what something means (even more to battle using Scripture and make points with it).

The point is that we don't live long enough to learn what we would need to learn to understand Scripture on our own, and our Enemy does not have such a problem. That is why there MUST be a Church, not a building, not just people who live and die, but an entity that marches through time, to use Lewis's expression. From that standpoint, Sola Scriptura, the idea that all I need is the Bible, doesn't work (as if the Bible fell from heaven ready to go).

Upshot, I'm not seeking because I've found the True Church. Other churches have parts of the Truth, and if they don't want to find more, God bless them. I believe that many people will be saved without ever having set foot inside an Orthodox Church. I trust in God's mercy. But that's why I'm not going to argue with anyone here.

Oh, I read only summaries of Schaeffer - I can't readily get books in English from here (Russia), but the impression is somewhat aggressive and perhaps arrogant. I can't say for sure. I don't want to attack other faiths. Only explain why I can't believe them. Why I couldn't return to the Baptists.

Anyway, learning about the best kept secret on the planet - the Orthodox Church - is an education unto itself. I encourage you to take a look. If nothing else, it will make it easier to talk to people like me (don't know as there are all that many like me, but...). That link to our Open Cafe http://www.christianforums.com/t2911851 ... cient-way-[open]-caf might be a good place to start. Or just go to www.oca.org
Or meet with a local Orthodox priest! (Best option, but most internet surfers won't go for it)

I'll still pop my head in periodically, and I'll answer any questions or whatnot. Like I said, some fun people write here!

God bless!
Last edited by rusmeister on September 27th, 2006, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: re: sola scriptura

Postby Stanley Anderson » September 27th, 2006, 4:21 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: re: sola scriptura

Postby Karen » September 27th, 2006, 4:24 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Re: re: sola scriptura

Postby Stanley Anderson » September 27th, 2006, 4:49 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: re: sola scriptura

Postby Karen » September 27th, 2006, 6:37 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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re: sola scriptura

Postby WolfVanZandt » September 28th, 2006, 1:53 am

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re: sola scriptura

Postby rusmeister » September 28th, 2006, 4:22 am

Hi Wolf,
As to the 'brother' issue, I didn't know if it was important to you or not. It is used by some English-speaking Protestants to 'prove' (from the Bible) that Mary did not remain a virgin. This knowledge would cast serious doubt on that argument. But I said it's only a dinky example (out of a multitude) of how people make assumptions from what they read and assume that they are correct. They forget that they are reading a translation and that it is possible (as anyone who has ever tried to translate poetry can assure you) for multiple meanings of words to be lost in translation. They assume that what they read means exactly what they see it to mean, and in relying exclusively on themselves, are actually lead into misunderstanding and even falsehood, all the while believing that the Bible supports their understanding.

As to time, my very point is that in rejecting Tradition, we reject the wisdom of those who went before us. Chesterton said it magnificently when he said, "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around." - Orthodoxy, 1908
Surely a child who listens to and learns from his father as his father did before him will have more wisdom and resources at his command than one who refuses to listen and who insists on figuring out all of life by himself, rejecting that wisdom and tradition. The Church fathers and early saints in the Church heeded Paul's words to learn from the tradition passed on to them, placing a premium on what they had to say. We, having even more saints who went before us, have even more to gain by heeding them, rather than developing our own doctrines and forming our own churches.
If that isn't clear enough, I'll see if Stanley or someone else here understands what I am saying and can express it better. Expression of my thoughts has never been my strong point.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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re: sola scriptura

Postby WolfVanZandt » September 28th, 2006, 6:04 am

Well, I agree that many (and possibly most) Christians don't study the Bible nearly enough - and by 'study" I mean a concerted effort by all means at their disposal to understand it. I also agree that they don't try nealy enough to understand other views. As far as I'm concerned, Protestants need to understand what the rest of the church believes and why they believe it. For other reasons, they need to know wat people of any other religion that they might come in contact with believes and why they believe it.

I certainly understand the "standing on the shoulders of those who went before" issue. But even those that went before need to be critically examined. In science, they checked Newton and found out that it didn't work in submicroscopic situations and some hypermacroscopic situations. It's not reasonable to accept an authority simply because they are popularly considered an authority. There needs to be a reason that the person is considered an authority. In a court of law, experts have to be verified by the court before they can be used as experts. If I look at and expert, such as Augustine or Basil, and I see things that set off alarms, I'm not going to accept them gratis as an expert witness and I'm not going to accept them simply because someone else told me that they were an expert.
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re: sola scriptura

Postby postodave » September 28th, 2006, 1:07 pm

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re: sola scriptura

Postby rusmeister » September 28th, 2006, 6:29 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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