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sola scriptura

re: sola scriptura

Postby WolfVanZandt » September 19th, 2006, 9:26 pm

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Re: re: sola scriptura

Postby Adam » September 22nd, 2006, 11:54 pm

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re: sola scriptura

Postby WolfVanZandt » September 23rd, 2006, 1:14 am

And just exactly how do you derive that trusting scripture is the cause of all that chaos?

Actually, Jesus Himself said that He brought division - so you may be right in a way - but the actual cause is the self centeredness of humanity - not the scriptures.

People want to do what they want to do they way they want to do it regardless of the wrongness of it, so if the Doggedly refuses to approve, then, why you simply must reinterpret the Bible so that it says what you want it to say, and that's what the secular church has been doing almost since its inception. A few folks got sick of it 500 years ago and said enough. As could be predicted, they and their followers stared the process all over again within their own groups.

I've said myself that there's little difference between the Catholic and Protestant denominations - the only real difference I can see is that the Catholoic church tends to be more liely to instiutioalize the evil within her. In the others, it tends to be less formal.
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Re: re: sola scriptura

Postby rusmeister » September 23rd, 2006, 4:44 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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re: sola scriptura

Postby WolfVanZandt » September 23rd, 2006, 5:12 am

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Re: re: sola scriptura

Postby Sarah N. » September 23rd, 2006, 4:30 pm

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re: sola scriptura

Postby Pizza Man » September 23rd, 2006, 6:56 pm

Rus, what do you think of all the references to the authority and infallibility of the Bishop of Rome made by the early Church fathers?(in around 100 -500 ad., before the split) Also, could you present your arguments about "Indulgences, the Inquisition, and later Papal infallibility"?
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Re: re: sola scriptura

Postby rusmeister » September 24th, 2006, 4:05 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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re: sola scriptura

Postby Pizza Man » September 24th, 2006, 10:24 pm

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re: sola scriptura

Postby Pizza Man » September 24th, 2006, 10:41 pm

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re: sola scriptura

Postby Sarah N. » September 24th, 2006, 10:54 pm

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re: sola scriptura

Postby Pizza Man » September 24th, 2006, 11:06 pm

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re: sola scriptura

Postby WolfVanZandt » September 25th, 2006, 2:27 am

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re: sola scriptura

Postby rusmeister » September 25th, 2006, 4:12 am

This debate has gone on for a millenium. Give me a little time and I can pull out the detailed Orthodox clarifications of those statements. We could go back and forth. Rather than do that (because I have neither the time nor the energy), I'll invite those who want to see Orthodox responses to that question to ask here in our Open Cafe http://www.christianforums.com/t2911851 ... cient-way-[open]-café.html It's well worth registering and you can also (most likely) find people of your own faith there as well.

The most important thing for people to understand is that there was Church history before the 15th century and that the only churches with a valid claim to contuinuity to the Church Christ built are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. From there is does get more hairy, but it saves time in trying to understand where that Church is.

Assumptions that hierarchy was made up by men after the Apostles were gone is based on the philosophy of individualism above all (this is particularly prevalent in America - where people tend to mold faith around their philosophy, rather than their philosophy around their faith) and fear of authority (this is where you get these irreverent attitudes that "Jesus is my buddy" rather than my Judge and King, by the way). Democracy shapes the faith, rather than the faith shaping democracy.

There is enough Scriptural authority for hierarchy - explaining the references to deacons, presbyters and bishops takes some verbal juggling, and again, who determined which texts were indeed Scripture and why didn't the "gospel of Judas" make it in there?(thank God)

As a parting shot, I'll let y'all take a look at this. I believe it is mistaken regarding dates on Papal infallibility, and would rephrase the comments about the Catholic Church, but otherwise, are there any errors?

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517. If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to re-marry. If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560. If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582. If you are Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England, founded by Samuel Senbury in the American colonies in the 17th century. If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1606. If you are of the Dutch Reformed Church, you recognize Michelis Jones as founder because he originated your religion in New York in 1628. If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1774. If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, New York, in 1829. If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865. If you are Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as "Church of the Nazarene, Pentecostal Gospel," "Holiness Church," or "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past hundred years.
If you are Roman Catholic, your church shared the same rich apostolic and doctrinal heritage as the Orthodox Church for the first thousand years of its history, since during the first millennium they were one and the same Church. Lamentably, in 1054, the Pope of Rome broke away from the other four Apostolic Patriarchates (which include Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem), by tampering with the Original Creed of the Church, and considering himself to be infallible. Thus your church is 1,000 years old.
If you are Orthodox Christian, your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It has not changed since that time. Our church is now almost 2,000 years old. And it is for this reason, that Orthodoxy, the Church of the Apostles and the Fathers is considered the true "one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church." This is the greatest legacy that we can pass on to the young people of the new millennium.


by Rev. Dr. Miltiades Efthimiou
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re: sola scriptura

Postby WolfVanZandt » September 25th, 2006, 4:23 am

What if I'm nondenominatonal?

And yer right, it takes a lot of verbal juggling to get any hierarchy past the local church level out of the scriptures.

The Gospel of Judas is not in the Bible precisely for the reason you mentioned. "Thank God." That's also why the canon(s) is(are) what it(they) is(are).
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