Theology of the Immaculate conception?

[Sarah N.]

[David Jack]

[Sarah N.]

[AllanS]

Hi Sarah,

If the stuff about Jesus rising and so on is true, it would be almost certain that Mary is also glorified and praying for us.

But we don't know she is. At least, I don't. Nor could Luther have known, whatever he said.

[David Jack]

[Pizza Man]

[David Jack]

[Pizza Man]

[Pizza Man]

[watcher]

David: you're right. The argument supplied by your friend cannot be one of necessity - at most, there is an argument from fittingness. The doctrine is certainly not "optional" for Catholics, although it's difficult to digest. There isn't really evident and strong support for it in Scripture, and there doesn't appear to be a strong body of historical evidence. Most disturbing is the fact that St. Thomas explicitly argued against the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

I've attached a link that I think provides a good overview of the issues. I hope you find it helpful. It's important to note that the Church doesn't teach that, in virtue of her Immaculate Conception, Mary did not need the merit of Christ's grace - just that she received it "in anticipation," and thus had that much more reason to hold Christ as her Savior. I think this is the only real point of debate, to be honest - could the grace of Christ's blood be bestowed prior to the shedding of His blood? People will try to turn the argument in a lot of different directions, but this is the main point.



The reason it seems so fitting that Mary was conceived without sin is that Christs inherits her humanity fully, without alteration or intervention to repair or prevent the inherited corruption of Original Sin. In this way, He receives his human nature from His mother in exactly the same fashion that we do. It's the "cleanest" way to do it. Like I said, that's not an argument from necessity - I don't think anyone has ever proved that there would have been anything unreasonable in an act of Divine intervention to prevent the transmission of Original Sin.

Lastly, and I'm not sure how people take miraculous apparitions, Our Lady of Lourdes appeared to Bernadette Soubirous in 1858, and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception," on March 25th of that year. My parents always taught me that a gentleman doesn't contradict a lady.

Cheers.

[Kolbitar]

[watcher]

[Sarah N.]

[Pizza Man]

Another point about the Reformation. Some would say that the Church lost it's authority, (whatever that would be) because of the great abuses going on in the Church at that time.(The selling of indulgences and so forth) The Church never officially taught that those things were okay, so there is no problem of contradictory teaching to disprove a claim to infallibility. But what if it got to the point that it was so bad and so widespread that the Church just lost her authority? The question is: what was that point? Where do you draw the line? At what point does the mercy of God end? Jesus always knew that there would be some corruption in His Church(The parable of the Weeds and the Wheat), so you have to ask yourself: Do I claim the authority to determine at what point God refuses to work through a flawed instrument. That is a dangerous question to ask, because you yourself and all humans are flawed instruments. If God got sick of working through and improving the Church (And therefore in a sense, abandoned her, something God would not do), might not He get sick of working through and improving you?

[David Jack]