All Idolaters?

[Pizza Man]

[David Jack]

[Pizza Man]

Dave, what about what it says in your signiture? The Church has believed in the real preasence from the begining. Would God allow such an error to persist for 2000 years?

[Leslie]

[interloper]

[Pizza Man]

[Pizza Man]

[interloper]

Thanks, Pizza Man, for your comments.

Perhaps in saying that I'm not entitled to pass judgment on other Christians, I should have used the word qualified, rather than entitled (not being qualified automatically implies non-entitlement).

And yes, obviously I would speak out against anyone who maintained that murder was acceptable, but I was talking about my dealings with other Christians and I assume that a Christian would take it as read that murder is a crime.

Just whether I should correct a brother or sister when I think they are in error is a matter in which I would feel the need to seek God's guidance in prayer. For family members (especially one's children in formative years) and close confidential friends, I daresy it is in order, for in that sort of situation it is clearly being done out of love and care for the 'correctee'. But as a general prinicple, I'm not so sure. I think I'd be wary about attempting to broadcast a statement that highlights a doctrinal error (in my judgment) in the beliefs of another denomination of the church, and that for several reasons.

I'm pleased with your remarks about non-Catholics and the fact that they're not doomed to damnation simply by being that. I just wonder if some individual Catholics do think that though (cf first posting in the 'Only Catholics go to Heaven?' thread). If they do, they are (in my view) committing the same mistake as individuals in other churches, like the one I was brought up in, who think that way about Catholics - and say so.

It does follow that if A implies B, then if B is not true, A is not true either (A cannot be true in that situation, because otherwise B would be true).

[Leslie]

[Pizza Man]

[Pizza Man]

[interloper]

Pizza Man

I appreciate your carefully considered answers to the points I raised. On the face of it, it seems that we only agree on two things: (i) it's always good policy to seek the wisdom and guidance of God in prayer, and (ii) that if A implies B, then (not B) implies (not A).

However, I accept all your assertions and the reasons behind them, and like Leslie, I don't think I really have a major issue with them. Dissent I may do, but have a major issue, no. As I said, I was not brought up in the Catholic faith (very far from it), but since those early days I have shifted my position considerably, and now occupy what I tend to think of as middle ground. I am very happy to discuss matters of Christianity with (nearly all) Catholics and with (nearly all) Protestants. I am willing to see the points of view of all sides and respect people for them - I believe this is part of having the sort of love for one another that Jesus commanded His disciples to have. I tend to react against Catholics who set out to debunk as much of the Protestant way of thinking as they can, and equally I react against Protestants who do ditto for Catholic thinking. In fact, this is really the only thing that raises my hackles: a Christian who deliberately sets out to identify the errors of other Christians - I question whether people like that really have the love of Christ dwelling in them. But I realise you have not tried to do that. Your posts have been honest and sincere, and if at any time you have appeared to challenge the views of others, it has only been because of deeply held convictions, and with a sense of concern for others: you have said that in so many words.

I suppose I could find points in your latest post (the one in which you commented on my previous post) to parry, but I really don't think it's worth carrying further. I think I have made clear the way I think, and as I see it, there's little to be gained by continuing a debate of this sort. I'd much rather talk about things we do agree about. If it is really true that one has to be a Catholic in order to find ultimate salvation, and if this is revealed when I pass from this life, then I'm quite happy to be 'put right' when the time comes and become one then. Meanwhile I'm quite sure that we will all be shown ways in which we weren't completely on the right track - including the bishops and theologians you mentioned, whether they be Catholic or not.

The only thing I would add is that I'd like to see some threads that do more than simply highlight the contrast between Catholic and non-Catholic thinking. I'll see if I can think of one.

[Pizza Man]

[warren_piece]

we read that david was a man after god's own heart
we read that david did not sin except in the matter of uriah
so...
how many wives did david have?
not all catholics are idolators due to my disagreement with this matter just as not all pentacostals are satanists and possesed because i do not believe in speaking in tounges and being slain in the spirit.

[David Jack]