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The Bible and Homosexuality

The Bible and Homosexuality

Postby alecto » November 24th, 2006, 4:04 pm

Well, I've decided to put all of this in one place. Homosexuality is peeking through all the other threads. I've ranted on it a lot. Maybe if I give it a place it will all filter over and stay off of the other threads - some. And it gives me a chance to put all of my statements in one place. I will be adding them in chunks over the next few days, hopefully without trying to argue any points until I am done. The reason I talk about this is not just to get religion off of homosexuality. It is to allay fears. It is a mistake that homosexuality has been associated with Scripture the way it has. But what this means is that we don't need to be afraid of it for those reasons. Then we can unlink religion and gay rights so they don't fight each other, and that will be good for both sides. There is another side of it. The Bible verses are still there. If they do not refer to homosexuality then they refer to something else we may not be attending to. It's always twofold with misunderstandings of this kind. There's the thing we hit that we shouldn't have, and the thing we missed that we should have hit. In this case, the thing we miss is the perversion of the natural self in the name of mistaken ideas about God.

I first heard arguments claiming that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality about twenty years ago. Usually this involves an appeal to the cultural context of the Bible, etc. Much of what I'm going to say you can find in other places, for example and . On the other hand, I tend to make a more or less fundamentalist argument, meaning that I can keep the Scriptures as my only source of content, referring outside of them only when they tell me to (They will.) and to get language information. Those of you who have read my stuff know that I always mean more fundamental than "The Fundamentals" or anything today called "fundamentalism". I don't consider myself finished until I've "cracked the code" in the original languages. The Greek New Testament clearly obviates the Old Testament codes on homosexual content and explains its own treatment of the matter very clearly. Though some call any talk that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality "revisionist", I will make the countercharge: that the condemnation of homosexuality is a Roman revisionist interpretation of Scripture. It is just so ancient that most people consider it fundamental.

I should point out that I do not take the Bible as the sole source of religious truth, nor do I consider it infallible. But I will never use these as parts of my argument. In order to claim that the Bible condemns homosexuality, you have to add information to it. The information that has been added may boil down to only one thing, that "fornication" means any kind of sex outside of marriage. It really means "visiting prostitutes". This will be a key to the Apostolic reinterpretation of the sexual codes in Acts.

The idea to reconsider homosexuality does not come, as some claim, from some source outside of Christianity, or from atheists, or from evolution, or from other such new ideas. There is a new idea, the idea that all men are created equal, and its associated ideas of civil justice, that have clearly motivated this change and placed it in the last two centuries, but it does not come from a non-Christian source. I, in fact, got most of my personal motivation from three people, one of whom was a Baptist Sunday school teacher, another a Lutheran minister, and the third a Catholic priest.
Sentio ergo est.
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Postby alecto » November 24th, 2006, 4:13 pm

Last edited by alecto on November 25th, 2006, 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bible and Homosexuality

Postby Kolbitar » November 24th, 2006, 8:33 pm

Hello All.

I think, first of all, we have to be clear about the consequences of this debate. Either those who argue for the rightness of homosexuality are encouraging sin and misery while doing an injustice, as well, to those who have come out of the lifestyle (and found what they say is freedom in Christ); or those who believe it's wrong are -- on top of the other cruel and unusual ostracisms people with homosexual tendencies face -- denying a basic right and an important good to a small but very real minority of people. Either consequence is quite severe.

As a Christian – leaving aside religions in general -- I must question the potency, effectiveness and, really, the purpose of a faith which, if I am considering the second option, not only has offered no real advances in two thousand years but has basically encouraged the exact opposite. That fact itself is enough to give me great pause.

Now in addition, and as I’ve said before, I oppose the idea that homosexual relations are good or natural based on reason (natural law), and the consequences the denial of this opposition sets in terms of the precedent it implies; a precedent which runs counter to the basis for a constitutional democracy -- for a government subjected to the rule of law. I usually stray away from the Biblical question because in the socio-political debate the propositions known solely by revelation – the tenets of revealed religion – should only serve to illuminate rational propositions, not to be themselves implemented by law. However Alecto has, in this thread, brought the issue of homosexuality into the arena of theology, and I am very interested to watch it all unfold. I’m afraid I will not be able to offer much, in terms of whether or not there are assumptions brought from outside the text, and if so, whether or not they are justified. I do, however, have one theological observation to present for consideration.

Matthew 19: 4-6 reads:

“‘ 4 He said in reply, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.’”

If I had to put this in my own words, the paraphrase would run, “God made male and female so that a man and women may become one flesh...Therefore, what God has made to be joined together, no human being must separate.”

The way I see it is if my paraphrase is an accurate reflection of reliable translations (which I leave open for debate), then Jesus himself is telling proponents of homosexual activity, unions, laws, etc. that they are denying the design of God; and that, in theological terms, is sinful.
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby alecto » November 25th, 2006, 12:13 am

Sentio ergo est.
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Postby Kolbitar » November 26th, 2006, 1:20 pm

::The most "Christian" interpretation of the event is the so called "revisionist" idea that the sin of Sodom was the refusal of the city to accept strangers in a dignified fashion. Jesus sends out his own messengers and says that if they are not received in a city, then "It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city". He does not require that the citizens try any kind of sexual advance, merely that they do not receive the messengers.

Alecto I disagree. I think it's the rejection of their message (which would include repenting, no doubt), preceded by signs, that would warrant condemnation.

Matthew 10: 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven ais at hand.
8 aHeal the sick, cleanse the blepers, raise the dead, ccast out devils: dfreely ye have received, freely egive.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your apurses,
10 Nor ascrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is bworthy of his cmeat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall aenter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the adust of your bfeet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of aSodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

::Only recently have I begun to hear a very obvious fact about Sodom that even I had missed: the people of Sodom wanted to rape those people. What is it about our culture that we can get distracted about the sexes of the participants while missing the far more serious sin of rape?

But remember, part of the rape scenario involved turning down Lot's own daughters. So yes, it's obviously serious, but sexes are integral to the rape part of the story. It's not, like you paint it, that our culture is being distracted in the sense that it notices the homosexuality for the rape; instead, the story really lends itself for us to see more, basically saying "they even turned down raping young women in favor of raping men." If what I said is true, then it seems the focus given by the text on the homosexual act within the rape scenario means it's not simply an outside homophobic Romanist addition or Republican assumption ("distraction", as you put it). In fact, I wonder if this focus might be the key to understanding the subsequent uses of "sodomite," which then would not be extra-biblical.

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby alecto » November 26th, 2006, 2:15 pm

Sentio ergo est.
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Re: The Bible and Homosexuality

Postby tangent » November 26th, 2006, 2:44 pm

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Postby alecto » November 26th, 2006, 2:48 pm

Sentio ergo est.
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Re: The Bible and Homosexuality

Postby alecto » November 26th, 2006, 3:10 pm

Sentio ergo est.
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Re: The Bible and Homosexuality

Postby Kolbitar » November 26th, 2006, 5:38 pm

Tangent and Alecto:

::I think, alecto, well meaning as it is, your thread serves only to spread hate in the name of Christianity. I'm with you all the way, alecto, but I will not take part in this debate. I do not mean that you are in any way the cause of any hate but that there are too many intransigent fundamentalists to view this subject material with an ounce of compassion.

Tangent, did you read what I said? If you are wrong, and the homosexual act is a sin, then supporting it as ok -- whether or not it's in the name of compassion -- is harmful. If I am wrong, and the homosexual act is not a sin, then I am denying people a right -- which is wrong. You don't want to debate? that's fine, but at least have the courage to stick around to defend your otherwise hit and run accusations, which amount to nothing less than charging me with lacking compassion and of being hateful merely because I've (objectively) stated the either/or options.

::I was going to put off answering this until after I was finished with all of the exegesis, but since it's been quoted by tangent, I'm going to take it on. This is a pernicious false dichotomy in which both branches assume a hopeless pessimism in each case they treat. In the first branch it assumes two things, both of which are false: that we are encouraging sin and misery, and that those who have changed lifestyles are hurt if others discover that staying in the lifestyle is OK. On the other branch, it assumes that people who condemn homosexuality are incorrigible, that learning more about Scripture cannot not help them. I do not believe the pessimism in the first branch. I am an example of why the second branch is false. I used to condemn homosexuals. I learned about Scripture. I don't condemn homosexuals anymore.
::There are those who will dig in their heels because of what I say. There are others who will think, "I didn't know the Bible said that" and have a greater, more benificent, appreciation of Scripture because of it. The former would likely go on thinking what they think despite what I say or not say; the latter will learn something. Those are the people I most want to reach. I have not given up on those who dig in their heels. Some might change their minds. This is the third branch of my trichotomy, and I come from that branch.

There is no "trichotomy" in terms of the answers to whether or not the homosexual act is inherently sinful. It is, or it is not. The consequences of being wrong, either way, are quite severe, as I said -- and that's all I said. I said nothing about an immovable relation to those answers, nothing about a "hopeless pessimism" in either case, and nothing about the fact that some people change their minds. I merely stated what's at stake if you are wrong, or if I am wrong: no trichotomy there!

Jesse
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Postby tangent » November 26th, 2006, 8:30 pm

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Postby alecto » November 26th, 2006, 9:00 pm

Sentio ergo est.
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Postby Kolbitar » November 26th, 2006, 11:11 pm

::I know you didn't mention pessimism, but it's there by implication that discussing an issue will only have the effect of making things worse, no matter which side you're on.

To be honest the only implication I had in mind was that it's not always irrational homophobia driving those, like me, who think homosexual acts are a sin; that, for some of the reasons I mentioned, there's a lot at stake and neither side should assume the worst of the other but should recognize these obstacles as deep, honest and sincere convictions -- unless evidence to the contrary appears...

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Adam » November 26th, 2006, 11:40 pm

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Postby Pizza Man » November 27th, 2006, 12:01 am

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