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To Ana...

To Ana...

Postby Kolbitar » November 24th, 2006, 5:42 pm

Hello again Ana.

You write:

::From Acts 1:1-
"...I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen..."Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." ...But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."…The Apostles alone were given a special gift of the Holy Spirit to be THE avenue through which God would speak To the ends of the earth

First, Catholics believe that the deposit of faith – everything “materially” contained in Scripture – was given to the Apostles at Pentecost. However, the ability to formally understand – that is, to penetrate and shape it’s materiality for our understanding – is found in the fullness of the Church (which contains or includes Scripture, of which Scripture is one ingredient, so to speak); a fullness composed of three essential principles: Tradition, Scripture and the Magesterium (teaching authority). Now, your point is a good one about the Apostles speaking to the ends of the earth, but most obviously this does not mean they will do so physically, in person; that is why you say “[t]hat is how we got our Bible”, for you believe the Bible is the means through which this will finally be achieved. Catholics, Anglicans, and the Orthodox (among others) believe that the Holy Spirit’s preservation of the Apostolic message which you attribute to Scripture alone belongs as well to the Church in it’s full capacity (i.e., it’s teaching authority and tradition (various forms of preservation) in addition to Scripture). This is in keeping with Christ’s recorded words, with what Scripture itself says about the Church, and with the historical facts which go in to allowing a real belief that Scripture, as we have it, is trustworthy, reliable, inspired and closed to any further additions (the Bible doesn’t define itself, it doesn’t give a table of contents, and looking to it alone violates Scripture alone since the principle is not found there – alone).

St. Paul writes to Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2).

Teaching authority was passed from Paul to Timothy to faithful men and on to others. This visible succession allowed the contents of what-we-have-now-as-the-Bible to be carried on in a trustworthy way to begin with. So here we have the Holy Spirit “leading us into truth," preserving and developing essentials of the faith which Jesus commissioned to be passed on. All of this forms the “avenue… to the ends of the earth” of which you speak.

::That is how we got our Bible. And since the ends of the earth havn't yet recieved the message, they still alone do the speaking(NT)

The Bible is a result of Tradition, a result of the Church’s care which is visibly recognizable by the apostolic succession. If the Bible preserves the message of the Apostles, and the Church preserves the Bible, then they’re all parts of an organic whole: that’s what Catholicism teaches, and what history, as far as I can see, bears true (the defining of the Canon took centuries).

::The Bible claims that the Holy Spirit now works through the word. "the sword of the Spirit is the word of God" It does not say that the sword of the Spirit is the word of God and the Pope. The special annointing was just for the apostles.

I think you’re simply assuming the “word of God” is that written on paper which proverbially begs the question, for I believe it’s more than that. The written word is an instrument of the word of God, so we’re talking about the transmission, preservation and understanding of the word, the reality, of God, which not only Scripture does, but tradition and authority does as well. The Church in her councils, and the Pope in his capacity to speak ex cathedra, bring the sword of the spirit, the word of God, to us by clarifying and defining Scripture (the creedal definitions of the Trinity and Christ’s divine nature are the most common, readily accepted and perfect examples).

::The foundation being Jesus Christ, not the pope:
1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

The Catholic and Protestant will continue to talk past each other so long as there is no recognition of the difference in perspectives they have. The Catholic has a sacramental perspective; one which, in light of the Incarnation, views certain visible aspects of the Church as inseparable from Christ himself. Christ is the foundation, indeed, but in so far as Christ speaks through Peter (and his successors) Catholics believe that Peter is inseparable from Christ as foundation, and that the successors of the apostles (bishops), so long as they are in communion with Peter, are also inseparable – "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me (Luke 10:16).”

::As witnessed by and God inspired through THE apostles and prophets.
Ephesians 2:20 "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone"
If the pope is continuing on in a progression of infallability then the above verse should read: "Built of the foundation of apostles and prophets..." The "the" should be removed.

I want to understand you here, are you saying that the difference the “the” makes is that it excludes everyone else from the class of apostles and prophets? If so, then it seems that you’re assuming tools like papal infallibility are intended to do more than clarify and define the deposit of faith “once delivered” to the apostles: but they’re not. According to Catholics general revelation ended with the apostles; I think we agree on this.


::And proclaimed faithfully by the Church:
1 Timothy 3:15 "if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Note is says foundation of THE truth, it does not say: foundation of truth.

Again it seems like your opposing “the truth” to “truth” as if “truth” without the “the” means ongoing. But this fails to make an important distinction. There’s a difference, you see, between adding new truths and developing truths. You must admit this yourself, since at the time Paul wrote this (1 Timothy 3:15) to Timothy the Bible didn’t exist. Yet you believe the Bible as you have it is God’s inspired word, and that no more books will or can be added; however this, at the time Paul wrote, was not an explicit part of “the truth.” Therefore when the NAB renders it without the “the”, it is accurately doing so for the development of truth IS ongoing, while the other translations are also accurate to add the “the” in so far as they have in mind the exclusion of additional truths.

::Foundations can only be laid once. They must be in place before it can by built upon. If the Pope or Church claim to be part of an ongoing project to build the foundation…

To build the foundation? No, I think it’s accurate to say, from the Catholic point of view, that the Church, in it’s official capacity to define dogma through councils and papal decree, is the sacramental pillar and foundation of developing truth. It may be that part of that developing truth offers a clearer understanding of the foundation itself (the doctrine of infallibility, for instance), but the point of our relationship with Christ is to know him (the foundation) more and more intimately and clearly. And isn’t that the essential purpose of truth in the first place?

Sincerely,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Ana » November 25th, 2006, 2:07 am

I havn't read all of your post yet and I intend to do that here shortly and ponder it over. But I would like to ask: are you Catholic?

:smile:
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Postby Kolbitar » November 25th, 2006, 3:05 am

::But I would like to ask: are you Catholic?

Yes ma'am :-)

I'm a former Evangelical (strongly anti-Catholic at one time) who owes a great deal to my Evangelical brothers and sisters for nurturing me in Christ, and for reflecting their intimate relationships with Jesus Christ. Evangelical Christianity has a special place, along with Quakerism, in my heart. And now, yes, I am Catholic: an evangelized (therefore real) Catholic -- at least, by grace, I try to be :smile:

Sincerely,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Ana » November 25th, 2006, 7:12 pm

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Postby Kolbitar » November 25th, 2006, 11:53 pm

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Postby Kolbitar » November 26th, 2006, 12:18 am

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Ana » November 26th, 2006, 4:39 am

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Postby Ana » November 27th, 2006, 5:14 am

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Postby Ana » December 2nd, 2006, 8:26 pm

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Postby Kolbitar » December 3rd, 2006, 4:13 am

Ana, I'm sorry, I will try to get back to you on Sunday and answer your questions...

:smile:
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Kolbitar » December 7th, 2006, 12:47 am

Hi again Ana, sorry for the delay.

::I wasn't too clear on your meaning for the keys?

Ok. In Matthew 16:13-19 Jesus gives the keys of the kingdom to Peter:

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?  14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.  15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?  16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.  18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Now, where did Jesus go for this image? He went to Isaiah 22:21-22 -

"And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open."

Jesus has all authority from the Father, He's said this, and from Revelation 3:7 we know Jesus holds the key of David. However, we also know that Peter holds it. A key laid upon one's shoulder meant that a king was appointing, in essence, a prime minister: stewardship. We see from the rest of Isaiah 22 that succession is another aspect of the key, and the ability to bind and loose means authority. Jesus is therefore giving Peter succession, authority and stewardship.

David Currie writes, "if Peter is able to bind things in heaven itself, be enlightened by God the Father himself [Matthew 16:17], and lead the Church in such a way that she will never be overcome by evil, then infallibility is an extremely modest conclusion to these promises."

Quote:
never the less through a faith and obedience which are manifested in a different way than that of the Protestant.

::Could you explain this?

I think it's best explained by what preceded it:
"Given the context of Sacramental Christianity, a faith which leads to works means that to trust that Christ has instituted Baptism to erase Original Sin, and that good works (found, primarily, in the Sermon on the Mount) and the other Sacraments are how His grace operates in us -- how we enter the door only Christ could open -- is not to say we get to Heaven by our own effort on our own merit. Obeying Christ in this way... (participating in baptism, confession, communion, good works, etc.) are how we, Catholics, manifest our obedience and stay in His grace.

Blessings,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Ana » December 10th, 2006, 4:38 am

Hi Jesse,

Don’t worry about not getting back to me right away, life can be busy sometimes and I completely understand that. :smile:

I don’t agree that the Church is built on Peter and a succession of authority in the sense that you are speaking of. The Church is built on Peter’s confession and not on Peter.

Peter in Greek is Petros which is a “pebble” or “piece of rock”. The “Rock” in the Greek is Petra which is a “solid rock” or “mass of Rock”

So Peter is a pebble and his confession is the Rock.

Peter said: “ Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”


Peter’s confession in Jesus as the one who brought the good news of the gospel. The Gospel gives power to believe. Those who believe bring others to faith through the very same message. It is the confession of faith that moves those with faith to bring others to faith. And by so doing, the gates of Hell will not overcome it.

God keeps his kingdom from being overcome through his people who he gave the gift of faith.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As for the keys, The gospels also explain what they mean:

Mathew 18:15-18 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. "

In Matthew 18 is the definition of the keys. It is the authority to forgive the sins of the penitent and to withhold forgiveness from the impenitent. If forgiveness is withheld, it is bound on earth as it is in heaven. Meaning the keys are used to lock the door of the kingdom. If forgiveness is given, It is loosed on earth as it is in heaven. The keys are used to open the door to the kingdom.

And again, the keys are passed on. As the Father has sent Jesus to forgive or withhold forgiveness, so too those keys were handed down:

John 20:21-23 “Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If the Pope has the ability to expound scriptures for us perfectly. Then that means we are to believe everything he says. But scripture teaches us not to believe everything people say and it teaches us to instead trust in the word alone.

Even the Bereans were of most noble character because they didn’t trust Paul and his ability to expound the scripture! They trusted the word above even Paul! Surely even Paul is more trustworthy than even the Pope! After all, his name is written in the very word of God! Yet they were not to trust that Paul could expound the scriptures perfectly.

Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”

.
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Postby Pizza Man » December 10th, 2006, 5:20 am

May God bless you!

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Postby Tony » December 10th, 2006, 6:06 am

"The Church is the natural home of the Human Spirit."
-Hilaire Belloc
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Postby Ana » December 11th, 2006, 3:28 am

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