This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

To Ana...

Postby Ana » February 26th, 2007, 5:55 am

Member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. www.wels.net
User avatar
Ana
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Mar 2006

Postby Adam » February 26th, 2007, 10:23 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

Postby nomad » February 27th, 2007, 5:33 am

Thanks, Adam. I was just trying to say something about the Pharisees following the law not being good fruit by Jesus' definition, but you explained why better than I could.

I would, however, caution that the Bible has a role to play in teaching us and keeping us from error. The thing is, how do you approach it? We all like to think that we open our hearts like a clean slate to be written on, but the truth is we don't. Our hearts and minds are more like desks in use, with all sorts of other stuff on and in them, which has to be cleaned out and rearranged and prioritized. Not necessarily cleaned up though. A desk put to good use will usually have some clutter on it, and I think God doesn't want us to be too systematic in our theology. Otherwise we end up trying to tell Him, "No, that goes in this drawer." The Bible will give us guidance, but how difficult it is not to pull from it precisely the guidance we want!
member of the 2456317 club
"Well," said Pooh, "what I like best -- " and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.
User avatar
nomad
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: I wish I knew

Postby Ana » March 3rd, 2007, 6:58 am

Member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. www.wels.net
User avatar
Ana
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Mar 2006

Postby Ana » March 3rd, 2007, 7:22 am

Member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. www.wels.net
User avatar
Ana
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Mar 2006

Postby Adam » March 3rd, 2007, 8:14 am

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

Postby Ana » March 9th, 2007, 5:25 am

Member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. www.wels.net
User avatar
Ana
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Mar 2006

Postby Adam » March 9th, 2007, 6:27 am

::Your "opinion" of My inability to think and speak in Scriptural language is just that: just "your opinion", your opinions, my opinions are all together worthless, it is God's opinion that matters and his opinion is in the scriptures.

You are able to cite and quote Scripture, but you are not able to think in the categories and ideas of Scripture. Your use of and reverence for Scripture is superficial, you quote the words but do not understand what they mean.

::Firstly, you have said that the Bible isn't the word of God if I remember correctly, so you yourself don't believe that God works in and through the word.

Scripture is a means of communicating the Gospel, which is the message of the activity of God in the life, death and resurrection of the the Son. God does not simply "work through" the Scripture: that is not Scriptural language. God most certainly does not "work in" the Scripture: the idea that God is in any way within Scripture is idolatry.

::What I mean by God works through the word and is not in the word, is that the word, in the Bible is not God in a way that he is contained in it and is nowhere else. God works through the word because it is his word. God works in the word, because it is his word.
The word(srcipture)is not God because it is God's word
The word(scripture) is God but is not all of God, it is God's word from his mouth, heart, mind etc. In that sense, the word is God.

The Father's Word is the Son. The Scripture is not only not all of God, it is no part of God, it contains nothing of Him. It is a means of the message about His activity. Only the Son is worthy of the title "Word," and only in Him is God found, in any fashion, as He is in reborn humanity, for we are united with the Son in our faithfulness.

::Duet 11:18 "Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds"

Deuteronomy 11 says that we are to love the Lord our God and serve Him with all of our heart and soul, and all shall be well with us, but if we do not, then He will be angry with us and will shut the heavens to us. Those are the words which we are to fix in our hearts and minds, this promise that if we are faithful, God will be faithful.

::Duet 30:14 "14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

Deuteronomy 30 says that the commands of God are not unknown to us, are not mysterious or difficult to follow, but that God has made them known and near to us so that we can obey Him. That is the word that is near to us, His law.

::Duet 32:46 " Take to heart all the words (plural) I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law."

Again, in this passage "words" refers to the law.

::JOb 22:22 "Accept instruction from his mouth and lay up his words (plural) in your heart."

I am almost moved to stop engaging in this ridiculous conversation right now, so egregious and blasphemous to my ears is this citation; did you simply execute a word search on the internet for the occurance of "word?" Do you realize that you are quoting Eliphaz the Temanite in this passage? This is similar to using a Scripture passage that quotes Satan to prove your point.

::Psalm 119:160-162 160 All your words(plural) are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. Rulers persecute me without cause, but my heart trembles at your word. I rejoice in your promise like one who finds great spoil."

Again, in this passage, "word" is law. You have to remember that you are using english translations to ground your understanding, but you are dealing with a text written in Hebrew and Greek; what you think is an intending connection is often just a coincidence of translated terms; the context of the passage is what provides meaning.

::Jeremiah 15:16 "When your words (plural) came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty."

Are you familiar with the calling of Ezekiel? The "word" here refers to the message which God gives to the prophets to pass on to Israel. Scripture refers to the prophets receiving this message as eating the words (Ezekiel himself literally was commanded to eat a scroll); this is what the Christian fathers would call receiving the Word, that is, that the Father breathed into them the Christ, and they breathed out the Spirit on Israel. Word, then, here refers literally to the prophetic message, and allegorically to Christ, but never to Scripture.

::Zec 7:12 "They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words(plural) that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets."

Here the "word" is the message of the prophets.

::James 1:21-22 "Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

James refers to the commandments of God. Read the whole chapter instead of just doing a word search.

::1 Peter 1:23 -25 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you."

You misquoted the last verse. It says "That word is the good news that was announced to you." You see, Peter first quotes Scripture, then clarifies what the Scripture is referring to. He quotes Scripture about the word of the Lord, then says that the word in this passage refers to the Gospel. Now you are saying that it refers to Scripture. But Peter himself has already explained what it means, and you contradict him.

::The father teaches the son so that the son can be our substitute for righteousness and pay the penalty of our sin. The first son teach's his brothers to show them their sin, to show them that they are unrighteous and deserve only death and damanation into Hell and then to show them their savior from sin, death and damnation to Hell:

Christ is not our substitute, He is us. In Him, we do not escape death. Rather, in Him we all die. And in Him, we find the guide and the power for our new life.

::If Salvation is a teaching, you are saved by works. The Bible contradicts this.

What is salvation? What does it mean to be saved?

To you it means eternal life.

To me it means holiness. Eternal life is a symptom of holiness, just as mortal life is a symptom of sin.

I shall say again; listen very carefully: works are not how we gain salvation, they are what salvation is.

It is very simple. Think of it as a transaction: it is false that I give God good works, and He gives me eternal life. We agree that this is false. What I suggest is that we give God faith, and He gives us good works. That is, our reward for having faith is that God works through us, making us capable and directing us in good works.

Good works is not how we are saved. Good works is what we are saved FOR. It is the reason for which we are saved. God pulls us out of the water so that we can walk with Him in the garden. This is what the Law is, a walking. This is what good works is, the Law.

Your misquoting of Scripture is now more than just ignorance; it is a willful act of taking verses out of context, apparently without even looking at the context (the passage from Job leads me to believe this), and it is so offensive to me that I cannot in good conscience continue to engage it. Perhaps you truly do revere the Scripture, but no one who uses an internet word search to unlock the meanings of Scripture is truly revering it as they claim. The result is blasphemy. I hope by parting from the conversation to encourage in you any small measure of the shame that your misuse of God's commands and wisdom deserve.
"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

Postby nomad » March 10th, 2007, 12:57 am

member of the 2456317 club
"Well," said Pooh, "what I like best -- " and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.
User avatar
nomad
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: I wish I knew

Postby Adam » March 10th, 2007, 2:19 am

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
Adam
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1077
Joined: Dec 2000

Postby Pizza Man » March 12th, 2007, 12:45 am

May God bless you!

Member of the 2456317 Club

"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you"
-Jesus Christ, John 6:53

Got Life?
Pizza Man
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA

Postby Ana » March 12th, 2007, 3:57 am

Last edited by Ana on March 12th, 2007, 4:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. www.wels.net
User avatar
Ana
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Mar 2006

Postby Ana » March 12th, 2007, 4:03 am

Member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. www.wels.net
User avatar
Ana
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Mar 2006

Postby Ana » March 12th, 2007, 4:05 am

Pizza Man

I am printing up your post and will get back to you when I can.
Member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. www.wels.net
User avatar
Ana
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Mar 2006

!

Postby provis » March 12th, 2007, 10:04 pm

User avatar
provis
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dublin, Virginia

PreviousNext

Return to Religion, Science, and Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 10 guests

cron