To Ana...

[Ana]

[Ana]

[Adam]

[Kolbitar]

Ana, I'm curious. Indulge me for a moment if you don't mind.

Do you believe in hell?

Do you believe that you still sin?

Thanks,

Jesse

[Ana]

[Adam]

::How do you reconcile that with: Roamns 4:2 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God" Romans 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation." Romans 9:32 "Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

I think that you have misunderstood; all of these verses teach that our relationship with God is not something that we earn by obeying the laws of the torah, circumcision and sabbath observance and fasting and holidays.

What I am suggesting is not that good works are how we are saved, but that good works are what we are saved FOR. The purpose of having been freely given a relationship with God is that such a relationship makes us better people, whole people.


::You have contradicted yourself. In the first quote it is "selfish" to recieve these gifts from God.
In the second quote excepting a gift from God(grandmother) is no longer selfish.

There is no contradiction; the point is that salvation is not something that benefits us, it is something that allows us to be a benefit to others. The sweater metaphor was to make a different point; if you do not make use of your salvation, then it is meaningless.

Salvation is the power to do God's will. If you think that salvation is the status of being good and going to heaven, then your salvation only benefits you.

::The truth is, accepting a gift from someone is not selfish but simply recieving a gift from someone who loves you. And being thankful because of it.

We prove we are thankful for salvation by using it. But we can only use it if we first realize what it is, not a ticket into an eternal party after we die, but the power of God in and through us to accomplish His will.

::Yes and your method of salvation by works means that you send your grandmother a thank you note and are extra nice to her so that you can get the sweater. That is selfish.

Again, I warned you ahead of time that my point was one that you may never have heard before, so that you should be patient with me and not jump to any conclusions before grouping me together with other arguments so quickly. I am not saying that salvation is by works. I am saying that salvation is works. That is, by grace through faith I am given the power to work as God's servant. Working for God isn't how I earn His love. Working for God isn't how I thank Him for His love. Working for God is the benefit and meaning of His love; because He has first loved me, now I am able to love others. It is cause and effect.

::God must first give us Salvation as a gift on the merits of Jesus alone. Then all the good works we do are a thank you just like in your parable of gramdma. They would be completely selfless, because I have already been given the gift and have nothing more to gain!

Salvation isn't about you at all, it is about what you are able to do for others. Without God we are weak and unable to help others, but with God we are strong and able to help others. That is our salvation. What happens when we die should be of no concern to us.

Salvation isn't status, it is power.

Adam

[nomad]

[Adam]

[Ana]

[Ana]

[Adam]

Just a few exegetical notes. First, on the cited text of 1 Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

The text goes on:
"For ‘All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord endures for ever.’ That word is the good news that was announced to you."

The word is not the Scripture, but the good news, that is the Gospel, that God came to earth to live and die for us. This is also to what James refers. Both verses have nothing to say about the sufficiencies or insufficiencies of the Scripture.

This also caught my eye:

"We have the Bible, we no longer need God to speak to us through anyone. Before the Bible was written God spoke to us through the prophets and 12 apostles. But no more!"

The Bible didn't take the place of the words spoken through the prophets and the apostles; the Bible IS the words spoken through the prophets and the apostles. There is no reason to believe that, at an arbitrary time, God decided that no more needed to be said, and that we could just go back and reread if we ever had any questions for Him.

Adam

[Ana]

[Ana]

[Adam]

Ana,

In my Christian tradition, the use of Biblical citations as prooftexts pulled out of context is considered dishonorable to God and to the text. That is why I do not riddle my posts with english translations of pericopes.

However, I can promise that this understanding can illuminate the teachings of the Scripture:

When Jesus foretells of His death and resurrection, he says that anyone who desires to save their life must give up their life, and that those who do not follow these words but are ashamed of them, of them the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes back in glory and power, the kingdom of God.

When Jesus sends out his apostles, he instructs them to tell the people that "the kingdom of God has come near."

When Jesus teaches us to pray, He told us to say "Your kingdom come."

When Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming to earth, he answered them that the kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be seen, but that the kingdom of God is within us, that is, the rule or power of God is within us.

When Jesus was asked by the Sadducees about the resurrection, Jesus answered that the Lord is said to be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but that the Lord is not God of the dead, but of the living, and that therefore in God's time all of the dead are alive.

Read the Gospels from start to finish, in one sitting if you can, and see that everything points, not to a heaven and a hell after death, but to the coming of the kingdom of God to earth, the return of the messiah with glory and power, to establish the rule, the justice, of God. That justice will burn away all evil and refine all good.

Asking me to use Scripture as proofs for such a thing is like asking me to cite the chapter and verse to prove that God loves us; love and salvation are the meanings of the entire story, from Genesis to Revelation. But to see it, you have to know what you are looking for, or more accurately, you cannot be misled by what other people want you to find. The Lord is not a God of punishment and reward; He is a God of power and recreation; the gifts that He gives us are the powers to join Him in bringing justice to the world and peace to all mankind. Searching your heart will prove that it's deepest desire is not simply an eternal life of blessing for yourself, and you will have the eyes to see that such is not what the Scripture is offering you. The real desire of the human heart is for justice and peace, and the Scripture promises the power to find it.

Adam

[Ana]