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Isolated Occurance, or Watershed Event?

Isolated Occurance, or Watershed Event?

Postby Mary » December 18th, 2006, 6:19 pm

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Postby Josh » December 18th, 2006, 7:45 pm

I don't want to get into the issue underlying the actions taken by the Virginia churches; plenty of other threads here address that.

There is an interesting subplot here, which I did not see in the articles linked. I attend a church in Northern Virginia that is within shouting distance of those two churches. Land in the area is very, very expensive, and the buildings that house those two churches (actually I know this is the case for Truro and think it is the case for the other) are owned by the denominational body, not by the congregations. In voting to split from the mainline church, these congregations essentially are throwing themselves to the curb.

Are they doing the right thing? It's tragic to see a split in any church, and the scriptural answer is always reconciliation where reconciliation is possible. But ultimately we must answer to God, not to a priest or a church counsel. Hopefully the side of the Anglican conflict that is in the wrong will realize its error, and reconciliation will be possible.

In the meantime, if you plan on starting a new church, it seems like a good idea to purchase your property independent of your denomination...
ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby Karen » December 18th, 2006, 7:57 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Josh » December 18th, 2006, 8:08 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby Mary » December 18th, 2006, 9:06 pm

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Postby wingedllama » December 19th, 2006, 1:17 am

The Anglican church I go to is part of something called the Anglican Mission in America. We're a network of churches under the guidance of the church in Rwanda.
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Re: Isolated Occurance, or Watershed Event?

Postby watcher » December 19th, 2006, 5:47 pm

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Postby JRosemary » December 19th, 2006, 6:52 pm

Conservative Judaism just wrestled with this same issue. Can we have openly gay rabbis and cantors? Can we bless gay marriages?

We have a Law Committee of 25 appointees. Whenever a halakhic question arises--that is, a question about Jewish law--any member of the law committee can issue a response. As long as at least six members of the committee endorse a particular response, that response is considered a tenable, allowable position as far as the law goes.

Well, there ended up being about five responses (teshuvot) on the table when it came to homosexuality. After much debate, argument, study and prayer, this month the Law Committee endorsed three of them.

In fact, the primary two that passed contradict each other. One says that while every sympathy should be shown to those with a homosexual orientation, homosexual relationships are still forbidden by Jewish Law.

The other says that, for a variety of reasons, the restrictions placed on homosexuality in the Torah, Talmud, etc., don't apply to monogamous homosexual unions. Therefore, we can have openly gay rabbis and cantors and we can bless gay unions.

There are some restrictions to the more liberal response--one particular act between two men is still frowned upon and bi's are encouraged to enter a heterosexual marriage. For more details on any of the teshuvot that passed, see the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism:

http://www.uscj.org/index1.html

So, in essence, Conservative Judaism is saying that this is a complex issue and you can argue successfully for or against it within the confines of our law, scripture and tradition. Therefore, there's no point in favoring one reading of the law above the other. Both are valid--and there's room enough for both.

Now it will be up to each individual Conservative synagogue to decide whether or not to bless gay unions and whether or not to hire a gay rabbi or cantor.

This has happened before--passing contradictory teshuvot, I mean. It happened over the egalitarian issue. That's why most Conservative synagogues allow women to be cantors and rabbis--but there are still a few traditional hold outs that do not.

Admittedly, no one's perfectly happy with this outcome regarding the homosexual issue. But at least we're all equally miserable.

The Episcopalians might want to come up with a similiar ruling. Why not say that both parties have a valid point and leave it up to each individual church to decide? If an individual church has enough power--or thinks it has enough power--to up and leave a diosece and then turn around and start a legal battle over the property, how much trouble could it be just to tell them to decide for themselves whether or not to take on gay priests and whether or not to hold gay committment ceremonies?

Bottom line: let liberal churches and conservative churches each go their own way on this issue--and let each recognize that the other has a valid argument. A Church should be large enough to hold more than one opinion.
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Postby robsia » December 19th, 2006, 8:10 pm

So are they leaving because they support homosexuality and the American Episcopal church does not, or because they do not support homosexuality and the American Episcopal church does.

It's not obvious from your post.

I guess if you can't support the teachings of the church to which you belong then you should leave. I did.

Can't see how 8 churches breaking away is a 'big deal'

Heck we have more than twice that in just our town.
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Postby Karen » December 19th, 2006, 8:33 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Pete » December 19th, 2006, 10:45 pm

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Postby robsia » December 19th, 2006, 10:50 pm

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Postby Pete » December 19th, 2006, 10:56 pm

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Postby robsia » December 19th, 2006, 11:04 pm

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Postby Pete » December 19th, 2006, 11:17 pm

Yeah, I do understand what you were getting at, but I think it is a significant thing. Part of the reason I believe it is a significant thing is the way it should be read - these are 7 or 8 churches from a specific denomination and from the same state (in the US) as well. Indeed this isn't just several churches taking a different stand to others - this is several churches of a particular denomination.

It would be like several Catholic churches no longer going to be under the leadership of the Vatican.

Indeed if it were to be read as within the broader community of churches, it doesn't sound that big at all - churches and Christians have different issues all the time (that's probably one of the big reasons as to why we have so many different choices).

Why do other churches not split with the church leadership they're under? I'd seriously suggest you're quite probably wrong to say "hypocrisy" there, Linda...I'd say it's more likely that most in church leadership have not made controversial decisions like the one reported - so why would the churches split? :??:

Perhaps you also see my point?
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