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A Mission to Convert

A Mission to Convert

Postby c » January 3rd, 2007, 2:02 am

There's an interesting review of Dawkins' new book here if you're interested:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19775

Here's a juicy excerpt:

The most disappointing feature of The God Delusion is Dawkins's failure to engage religious thought in any serious way. This is, obviously, an odd thing to say about a book-length investigation into God. But the problem reflects Dawkins's cavalier attitude about the quality of religious thinking. Dawkins tends to dismiss simple expressions of belief as base superstition. Having no patience with the faith of fundamentalists, he also tends to dismiss more sophisticated expressions of belief as sophistry (he cannot, for instance, tolerate the meticulous reasoning of theologians). But if simple religion is barbaric (and thus unworthy of serious thought) and sophisticated religion is logic-chopping (and thus equally unworthy of serious thought), the ineluctable conclusion is that all religion is unworthy of serious thought.

The result is The God Delusion, a book that never squarely faces its opponents. You will find no serious examination of Christian or Jewish theology in Dawkins's book (does he know Augustine rejected biblical literalism in the early fifth century?), no attempt to follow philosophical debates about the nature of religious propositions (are they like ordinary claims about everyday matters?), no effort to appreciate the complex history of interaction between the Church and science (does he know the Church had an important part in the rise of non-Aristotelian science?), and no attempt to understand even the simplest of religious attitudes (does Dawkins really believe, as he says, that Christians should be thrilled to learn they're terminally ill?).
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Postby Josh » January 3rd, 2007, 1:36 pm

A few years ago Richard Posner wrote a book called The Decline of the Public Intellectual, wherein he meticulously documents through statistical analysis what we otherwise can tell very well anecdotally: the public intellectual died sometime in the early 20th century. A public intellectual is a person whose expertise and influence transcends all (or many) areas of public life: science, philosophy, politics, etc. The modern age of science and mathematics began with such men (e.g., Descartes, Bacon, Pascal, Newton--all Christians by the way). Many of the Founding Fathers of the United States were public intellectuals (e.g., Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton etc). Great early examples are Leonardo Da Vinci and Thomas Aquinas. The age of French humanism (as it was defined in the 16th century--referring to an emphasis on the humanities) and the Enlightenment were filled with men who understood their philosophy as well as they understood their calculus and their Shakespeare. That lasted through the nineteenth century, even with the rise of scientific specialization. You still had men like Freud speaking intelligently on non-scientific issues (although Freud was a very bad philosopher), and William James crossing the line between science and philosophy with ease. In the 20th century, Lewis (who didn't know too much science and very little math, but who did comment intelligently on medieval literature, modern religion, philosophy and war-time politics) and perhaps Russell, Sartre, and Wittgenstein fit the mold in the early half and middle of the century, but no one carried the mantle from any of those guys.

Postmodernism is a great breeding ground for scientists, but it's philosophically void (there are no good postmodern philosophers--it's almost a contradiction in terms). The religionists, particularly evangelical Christians, for their part have shown an alarming ignorance of, and an unfortunate (and confounding) hostility toward, modern science. No one cares about math anymore, other than mathematicians, quantum physicists, and economists, and other scientists getting their core coursework out of the way. Latin and philosophy are no longer parts of the basic public school curriculum, which leaves our generation devoid of an understanding of basic language usages, logic and argument forms. Whether it's because of poor public education, scientific specialization, or the atheists' and religionists' shared zeal to compartmentalize faith, the public intellectual is dead. Perhaps it's the case that the war between "evilution" and religion over the last 150 years has claimed not only the decline of religious intellectual life but also that of scientific intellectual life.

Dawkins--who should be the inheritor of the legacy of men like Sartre and Freud--shows us this in his work. The "philosophical" argument he puts forth in that book (if complexity of life proves God, then the necessary higher complexity of God would make God's existence improbable) is basically the same ol' "if God created us, who created God?" line that the materialist philosophers of yesteryear would have been too embarassed even to suggest. It presumes that if God exists, he must be created (which is not correct--contingency of being implies a non-contingency somewhere, not more contingent beings). It's nonsense, like the rest of his book is apparently.

It's refreshing to see a couple good scientific minds on this forum (alecto and Larry Gilman) discuss Christianity intelligently. It's also good to see some (with whom alecto and Larry no doubt disagree, but who I think they both respect), such as the Discovery Institute crowd, discuss both faith and science intelligently from the other side of the aisle. What would be great to see is the return of the "philosopher king" (to use Plato's terminology) to politics, true intellectuals running for public office. We need more Lincolns and Jeffersons, and fewer Kennedy's and Bushes. The last real idealist I think we've had in American political life was Reagan, and before that it was the two Roosevelts.
ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby alliebath » January 16th, 2007, 11:24 am

Gott würfelt nicht.
Albert Einstein
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Postby Josh » January 16th, 2007, 1:20 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby Leslie » January 16th, 2007, 11:20 pm

"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
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Postby Josh » January 17th, 2007, 12:12 am

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby Pindar » January 17th, 2007, 12:47 pm

Josh, I agree with you. I read an article similar to the book you describe. It was in the New Criterion, and now that you mention it, it think it may have cited that book. It was fairly critical of Dawkins, which of course i agree with, as i believe the absolutist position he takes with regard to religion is not the mindset ofthe true analytical mind.

I also find it interesting that you mention Thomas Aquinas, A brilliant mind whose theology is still relevant all these years afer him writing it. He of course was influenced heavily by the Grrek genius Aristotle, a man whose credentials are probably most close to the "philosopher king" that you speak of.

Im struggling to think of a public figure today that is truly learned.

Part of the problem may be the way that education is specialised. I wanted to study a course in physics at University, but couldnt as its "not in the arts faculty".

At oxford, you can study Physics and Philosphy, but i dont know anywhere else you can. And its also a shame that nowadays, Philosphy is often derided as a "mickey mouse subject", in favour of such rigorous intellectual disciplines as Media Studies and Sports science.

Its really a shame that Universities have to have veryone studying only a few subjects. In Miltons day, they studied probably ten times as much as we do.

Im lucky to have a Professor that has huge knowledge, and likes to teqach me beyond the curriculumm. As Im the only student he is able to invest time, but how many people with a thirst for knowledge are being turned away?
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Postby Josh » January 17th, 2007, 1:54 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby Karen » January 17th, 2007, 2:12 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby robsia » January 17th, 2007, 2:22 pm

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Postby Karen » January 17th, 2007, 2:43 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Pindar » January 17th, 2007, 2:57 pm

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Postby Josh » January 17th, 2007, 3:05 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby robsia » January 17th, 2007, 3:35 pm

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Postby Pindar » January 17th, 2007, 4:33 pm

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