Demons and the demonic

[David Jack]

and this verse from a keith green song (until that final day) which is also based on scripture:

"I wrestle not with flesh and blood,
but with the very one
who lost the keys of hell and death
to God's most precious son!"

the scripture is ephesians 6:2: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]."

recently, i have been bearing this in mind a lot when reading scripture. for example when david says "do not let my enemies triumph over me/put me to shame" he was certainly referring to human adversaries at times, but while our fellowman may oppose us in our walk with god they are not our ultimate foes. even while 'struggling' against them we should wish for their ultimate good (their salvation) but where the devil is concerned, we are trying to live and fight in the daily knowledge of his defeat by our Lord Jesus.

[WolfVanZandt]

Considering that, the first exorcism I was involved in, the thing almost killed me, yes, I believe that demons exist.

I assume that the only thing that can really convince anyone is direct involvement. On the other hand, direct involvement is a good thing to never have to deal with.

Discussions about what demons (in conrtast to devils) are and if they're different from devils and so forth is necessarily academic. Personally, it's not an issue.

[Pizza Man]

[WolfVanZandt]

I agree with most of what you say, Pizza Man, but I believe that the main reasons that demons do not often indulge in possession is the one you stated (that if places the demon in jeopardy - if they don't "play their cards right", they can end up in more trouble than they want) and that God gives certain people a specific Ministry of Spiritual Warfare which limits their activity and also provides the church with some security so that the mainstream church person can focus on the higher ministries of praise and evangelism without having to worry about the likes of demons.

I believe that the reason demons want to possess humans is so that 1) they can experience the world through human senses, and 2) they want to cause us torment and experience that torment through our senses.

Although I believe that demons and devils are the same, I've heard opinions ranging from "Devils are the angels that rebelled with Lucifer and the demons are the angels that left their posts to mate with human women and their offsprings"; to "demons are all evil spiritual entities other than devils". I do know that there are "things out there" that are certainly evil that are not devils (they might have once been, but now they're pretty mindless. I don't know where they came from or why they're like they are).

Protestants believe in exorcism (or some do, I'm not sure that many Protestants really even believe in demons). They may be more likely to call it "casting out demons" but that's just semantics. All Christians are able to cast out demons but if they don't know what they're doing (or, if they do it in their own strength), they're likely to get hurt (as I did). After my first experience, my pastor trained me in the ministry of spiritual warfare and I've never made the same mistake again.

I won't speculate on how many Protestant pastors do not accept the existence of demons or exorcism. I suspect that they will knuckle under and send for an exorcist if they run into it. Fear is a great pursuader. I think the more conservative ones would believe (after all, it's Biblical).

Exorcism is less formalised in the Protestant churches. There is no specific ritual involved (there might be in the Anglican). There are "right" and "wrong" ways to do things.

One thing that blows my mind is that I saw the recommendation on the Vatican website that exorcists induce the demon to leave the victim and enter them to do battle. Not only is that not Biblical, but it's deadly (and is, by the way, the mistake I first made).

Exorcism should always and only be done under the power and authority of Christ and never under the personal strength of the exorcist. The names and numbers of demons should be extracted and they should be driven out with confidence in the power of Christ. In most cases, the demand to leave is enough.

In my opinion, the possessed should express the desire to be delivered before an exorcism takes place unless the Holy Spirit requires it regardless. Otherwise, they're placed in more jeopardy than before.

[Pizza Man]

[WolfVanZandt]

Yes, that's what I meant - the demon wants to experience our being in torment first hand.

Demons don't just want to destroy, they want to dominate, corrupt completely, and then destroy. So they're not going to outright destroy a host immediately, but if they lose a host temporarily and then get another chance, they're not going to make the same mistake. The only situaton where I will exorcize a person against their expressed desire is if they're a cooperative host and the demon is using them to destroy others.

THere are several problems with allowing a demon to possess you as a strategy. In the first place - and maybe just a personal thing - I feel violated just being around them much less letting them touch me. Also, it should never be necessary - Christians have the authority to command demons. Again, no good strategist goes from a place of better advantage to a place of worse advantage by their own will and that would be the case. Again, there are things out there other than demons. They don't play by the same rules as demons and if you let one of those get in you without knowing what you're doing, you're in real trouble. Finally, the fact that it's not Biblical is a hint - it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a good idea, but it certainly should make you think twice before attempting it.

[Pizza Man]

[WolfVanZandt]

[jo]

[westsands410]

[Pizza Man]

[WolfVanZandt]

[Caesario]

Wolf,

It's interesting that you should mention that exorcists in the Catholic Church invite the demons into themselves in order to 'do battle.' According to Malachi Martin (not the greatest source) in 'Hostage to the Devil' that is exactly the opposite strategy of the exorcist.. the exorcist is to only try to expel the demon with Christ's authority and power, and Malachi backs this up with his illustrations. But the skeptic in me cries out when I read that book, so I'm not certain if he's a trust-worthy source on the matter.

[WolfVanZandt]

Mr. Martin is extraneous anyway - it's not Biblical (which doesn't necessarily mean that it's not appropriate - there may be strategies that aren't in the Bible) and, in my experience, it's a really bad idea. It also doesn't make since because all that is needed is Christ's authority.

[girlfreddy]