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A challenge from a friend...

A challenge from a friend...

Postby The Bigsleep J » February 8th, 2007, 6:26 am

Insert supposedly witty but random absurd comment here and add water
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Postby jo » February 8th, 2007, 11:54 am

I took a course in philosophy or religion at uni and quickly became frustrated with it. It just seemed like semantics to me - someone would put forth an argument and someone would put forth a counter argument and then a counter counter argument etc :). Unfortunately, there is ALWAYS a counter argument, whichever side you're coming from.
"I saw it begin,” said the Lord Digory. “I did not think I would live to see it die"

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Postby Karen » February 8th, 2007, 12:57 pm

I don't think there *is* a rational and logical argument for God - at least, not one that everyone would accept as such. I can give you lots of rational and logical reasons why I love my husband, but all that will do is convince you that *I* love him; they probably won't convince you to love him too. :wink: The real reason is, as Montaigne put it, "because he was he, because I was I", and that goes for God as well.

As we've all discussed many times, faith is a leap and a matter of trust, not a simple mental assent, and as such isn't amenable to being picked apart logically or reduced to a set of scientific propositions. A man rising from the dead is about the most illogical thing I've ever heard of. And yet I believe it. Go figure. :smile:
I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby The Bigsleep J » February 8th, 2007, 1:10 pm

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Postby Karen » February 8th, 2007, 8:50 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Genie » February 9th, 2007, 8:37 am

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Re: A challenge from a friend...

Postby Kolbitar » February 9th, 2007, 4:22 pm

::Science explains the reasoning behind everything--> there is no testable or empirical evidence to suggest anything supernatural exists--> thus there is no reason to believe that a God exists.

No, no. Science first assumes, as a hypothetical, that the universe works -- and will work -- a certain way. There is no testable or empirical evidence to support that assumption, for no matter how often the past has conformed to our assumption, the continuing assumption itself is inductive -- the steady pattern of laws to which we expect things in motion to conform as well as the steady pattern according to which we expect things to come into and go out of existence is not self-evidently certain; and, though the assumption can be deduced from what we know of the facts of the universes past, the inherent inability of the scientific method to claim knowledge (apart from our will) that this assumption will continue to hold is also present in that deduction.

Let me offer an analogy. I think we're all familiar with the game Sorry. The gist of the game is to move four pawns from Start, step by step, around a square board to the Home position. To begin one must draw the proper card (a 1 or a 2) in order to make an entrance from Start onto the area of play. Now, there are various rules to the game according to which cards you draw. For instance, if you draw a 2 you can either move a pawn from Start onto the board, or move a pawn already on the board two spaces, then you get to draw again; or if you draw an 11 you can either move eleven spaces or switch the position of one of your pawns with that of another player; or, say you draw a 4, you must then move backwards four spaces. Now, these rules are arbitrary rules -- there's no reason that a 3 could not be the card which let's us go backwards three spaces instead of four, or a 5 could not be the card which allows us to switch places, or a 7 which gets us out of start. The sum total of these rules, as you can see, make up the hypothetical, the if-then, which governs the game of Sorry.

Ok, so imagine we are the pawns in the game of Sorry but we have no recourse to viewing the cards drawn which fix the rules—but in some mysterious way we know that cards are, in fact, drawn. Let’s also say a vast amount of time has elapsed, so that we have made a number of observations according to our experience as pawns. We know, from past experience, that when we make an entrance onto the board we either start directly in front of the Start position, or we are suddenly lifted above the board only to take the place of a different colored pawn and send him back to his Start position—and that this relocation has occurred, in the past, on every square (the only constants are 1.) that pawns are relocated where a different colored pawn was resting, and 2. ) that when there is more than one different colored pawn on the board, the relocation always takes place nearest to the entering pawns Home). We deduce from this that there’s a card, (which we’ll call Card x) that allows us to enter the board in front of Start, and that there’s a separate card (Card y) which allows us to enter the board by being pulled toward the closest pawn to our Home – I deduce that they’re different types of cards because sometimes there are different colored pawns on the board and I still only wind up directly in front of Start. I likewise deduce that there’s a card, Card z, which makes me go backwards four spaces—so I’ll call it Card 4. However, I’m unsure if Card 4 is a different type of card from Card x or Card y – for those govern my movements from start, not from the board, and one card could have rules for both, depending. In such a way I could deduce quite a number of laws which govern the game – even the purpose of the game.

The laws of Sorry are, in principle, the same type of hypotheticals as the laws governing (so we assume) the universe. You might have noticed that I, as a pawn, could only deduce certain laws of Sorry if the persons playing the game followed the rules every time. But I can see no reason why the game of which I’m a part must follow these rules every time. My deductions, therefore, only hold for my past observations. I cannot rationally say, according to scientific observations, that they will continue to hold. Let us say the game of Sorry was, up to this point, only played by an elderly couple who saw no reason to break the rules of Sorry. However, they’ve now given the game to their grandchildren, and pawns are currently moving every which way. As you can see, the pawn had no right to say he knew that the game must always be played by the rules he deduced from past observations. Neither, rationally speaking, do scientists. The weight of their conviction rests in their will. Whoaaa… now maybe we have some motivation, some eyes to see and ears to hear, for digging deeper into our past “observations” and "deductions" in order to find a reliable metaphysical principle which can lend our conviction a rational basis!

I'd like to proceed, but we must first agree on the limits of the scientific method which I've attempted, here, to illustrate...

In sum, the very basis of science (it's working hypothetical), according to the scientific method, is not rational -- has no reason for belief. If it's true that "there is no reason to believe that a God exists" according to the scientific method, it's just as certain that there's no reason to believe in the working hypothetical of science (which drives the scientific method--for if you didn't believe the laws of nature would continue to hold, you wouldn't bother doing science) according to the scientific method.
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Re: A challenge from a friend...

Postby Kolbitar » February 9th, 2007, 6:38 pm

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Kolbitar » February 9th, 2007, 10:40 pm

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby CoinOperatedChristian » February 10th, 2007, 4:20 am

The best rational argument I've come across for the existence of "a god" is Aristotle's argument from causality. While it is much more complicated than my paraphrase the simplest explanation is...
All events are caused. If you can trace all events back to their first cause... the unmoved fist mover... That is god.
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Postby Kolbitar » February 10th, 2007, 1:32 pm

::The best rational argument I've come across for the existence of "a god" is Aristotle's argument from causality. While it is much more complicated than my paraphrase the simplest explanation is...
All events are caused. If you can trace all events back to their first cause... the unmoved fist mover... That is god.

There’s a couple things to understand about this argument. First, Hume, Russell, and now Dawkins, among others, go about misconceiving (and I’m being nice) the argument. Peter Kreeft cuts to the chase:

“…it is sometimes argued (e.g., by Bertrand Russell) that there is a self-contradiction in the argument, for one of the premises is that everything needs a cause, but the conclusion is that there is something (God) which does not need a cause. The child who asks "Who made God?" is really thinking of this objection. The answer is very simple: the argument does not use the premise that everything needs a cause. Everything in motion needs a cause, everything dependent needs a cause, everything imperfect needs a cause.”

1. So the first thing to remember is we are deriving our concept of God -- in so far as He’s uncaused, pure actuality, pure being -- from an a-posteriori (after experience) method. We are deducing the existence of something which exists outside of the causal, time-bound universe from the experience of the universe itself. The premise states that everything that changes needs a cause of it’s change, for at one moment it can be something (it has potential) and the next moment it is one of the things it can be and not the other things, and this determination needs a cause.

2. The second thing to remember is that both Aristotle and Aquinas who argued this line believed that it could be maintained that the universe could conceivably stretch back forever, but that the series of existing things stretching back forever needs something outside of it to keep it in existence at every moment.

3. The third thing to remember is that motion, in these arguments, essentially means any type of change in a thing—even in relation to other things. Change implies imperfection, which means something has potential within it. Potential means possibility. The universe as it is now is only one possible state in which the universe could be now.

THE ARGUMENT
.
The fundamental nature of the reality we experience is that, at any given moment, it’s a collection of things which are undergoing change. Some things are coming into existence, replacing other things, some things are going out of existence, replaced by other things -- this is called substantial change; while some things, already existing and continuing to exist, are undergoing change which does not destroy their substance – this is called accidental change.

The ability to change is called having potential. Potential means a thing can be in a various number of certain states. Something, therefore, needs to determine a thing with potential to be in the particular state it is in; this goes for both accidental and substantial change; thus this goes for the universe of changing things itself.

The universe, because it could be in a different state (even if it contained an infinite number of changing things) would need, at any given moment, something determining it to be in the particular state it’s in. That something must itself be devoid of potential, otherwise it too, at the same moment, would need a cause. Therefore there exists something, having no potential, which causes the particular state of being of the collection of things-that-change, which we experience in the universe. This cause, which is a being without change, is known as God.

Call it whatever you will, reason shows that it exists. This does not mean we have proved the Christian God exists, but it does mean, if the reasoning is flawless, that one aspect of the Christian God has been proved.
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Re: A challenge from a friend...

Postby Kolbitar » February 10th, 2007, 4:47 pm

::What I'm asking is quite difficult. Some would say it's, in fact, impossible. What I'm asking for you to provide is an argument for God, based in logic and rationality. Now, I've read a lot of good and a lot of terrible arguments for this, but even the good ones have flaws. So I'm going to play the role of Devil's Advocate in this discussion, and challenge certain arguments, simply because I've read plenty of challenges to said arguments.

Here's my input, at least concerning one argument (there are more):

A denial of the "Cosmological Argument" entails either 1.) a denial of one or both undeniable premises by which we know anything at all and by which we actually live, or 2.) a denial of the conclusion(s), which simply combine(s) these premises.

1. A thing cannot both be and not be at the same time in the same way - a thing is or is not (principle of non-contradiction). Simplified: If a thing exists it doesn't not exist.

2. Existing things change - things have potential to be or not be.

3. A thing which has potential, which can be or not be at a particular moment, a.) cannot determine itself to be or not be at a particular moment (or it is violating premise 1, both being and not being at the same time in the same way); it cannot choose it's own path, therefore something must determine it to be or not be or it hasn't been determined-which we know it has; b.) cannot be determined by nothing, for if nothing determined it, then it's the nature of nothing to make determinations; if nothing has a nature, then it's something, and something has determined it--that something must have no potential, it cannot not be; and c.) cannot be determined by another thing with potential, for at the same moment that thing also needs determination.

Additional Conclusion from 3:

4. The universe (a collection of things with potential) can be or not be at a particular moment, therefore it is determined by something which cannot not be (God is the name we give to a being which cannot not be).
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Re: A challenge from a friend...

Postby Kolbitar » February 10th, 2007, 10:19 pm

Last edited by Kolbitar on February 11th, 2007, 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Postby CoinOperatedChristian » February 11th, 2007, 1:27 am

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Postby Pizza Man » February 11th, 2007, 9:05 pm

It dosen't look like you need much help, so I will just post a link to a page with many arguments for the existence of God on it.


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