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Jeffrey John comments on Cross on BBC 4

Jeffrey John comments on Cross on BBC 4

Postby Adam Linton » April 4th, 2007, 8:44 pm

A number here may have run across this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... ster01.xml

Just to let you know, folks, that there are quite a few moderate and progressive Anglicans/Episcopalians who have found Jeffrey John's comments here truly unfortunate, if not dismaying (assuming he's being quoted accurately).

Yes, of course, "penal substitution" is only one theory of the Atonement - and quite a late one, at that, considerably later even than the fairly late "satisfaction" theory articulated by Anselm of Canterbury (late 11th/early 12th century). But all the historic theories of how the Atonement works, all the classic images used in speaking of the same, have affirmed that Christ died for our sins -- most certainly including the earliest and most broadly used "ransom" models (a version of which, of course, is found in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe*). I've always especially appreciated Lewis' remarks (in Mere Christianity), in which he strongly cautions against the simple equation of any one theory/image here with Christianity itself. They all convey something of the reality, but some (at least by some, some of the time) can be experienced as unhelpful, and none - by themselves - can contain the whole Mystery of Christ's Cross.

However, Jeffrey John's highly publicized comments, referenced in the above link, seemed to me to be confusing, counter-productive, and uncharitable, to say the least - and rather out of line with what I had understood to be previous efforts of his to articulate and foster a progressive traditionalism.

Other comments?

Anyone here heard the BBC interview in question?

Adam Linton

*For me, personally, the version of the ransom theory expressed in Eastern Christian liturgy and theological reflection has seemed especially compelling; the ransom being "paid" to the condition of death itself [see also Gustav Aulen's classic Christus Victor].

Additional Note: Along with my genuine primary interest in generating discussion on this topic, I also am offering this as a trial-run in carrying out a conversation on a controversial matter - within mindfulness of the Wardrobe's recently renewed commitment both candor and courtesy!
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Postby Leslie » April 5th, 2007, 2:35 am

"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
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Postby alecto » April 5th, 2007, 12:49 pm

I agree that the sacrificial role of Christ has been overemphasized. It is secondary to the central message of good works, faith, and redemption that is the majority topic of the Gospels. We have even made it destructive. The emphasis on salvation makes faith look like a plea bargain: I'll admit to my sins if you lessen my sentence. Simple human nonsense. But this does not mean there is no sacrificial element, or that the sacrifice was not part of the message. I do not for one instance believe that God had to sacrifice his son in order to work some kind of magnificent magic spell to gain our salvation anymore than killing a sheep was necessary to gain redemption from sins in ancient Israel. But it may be necessary to do it in order to make us stupid Humans take his pre-existing eternal grace seriously. Jeffrey John's alternative is absurd to me. God didn't make Christ suffer for redemption, so instead he was made to suffer so he could experience suffering? It doesn't make sense. The same amount of bad stuff that God isn't supposed to want happens in both cases. Maybe the guy is being quoted out of context.

The reason Christ dies on the cross is so that we take seriously his statement that the greatest love requires that one lay down his/her life for his/her friends. Whether one goes to Heaven or Hell is really inconsequential after all that, and is controlled by our love and God's love anyway, not what happened 1975 years ago.
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Postby JRosemary » April 5th, 2007, 5:41 pm

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Postby Adam Linton » April 5th, 2007, 7:46 pm

we have not loosely through silence permitted things to pass away as in a dream
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Postby Stanley Anderson » April 5th, 2007, 9:49 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Postby Leslie » April 5th, 2007, 11:21 pm

"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
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Postby Adam Linton » April 6th, 2007, 12:47 am

we have not loosely through silence permitted things to pass away as in a dream
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Postby JRosemary » April 6th, 2007, 4:37 am

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Postby Karen » April 6th, 2007, 3:22 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Adam Linton » April 6th, 2007, 3:45 pm

we have not loosely through silence permitted things to pass away as in a dream
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Postby Karen » April 6th, 2007, 4:29 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Leslie » April 15th, 2007, 6:44 pm

Here is the text of Jeffrey John's talk:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programme ... yjohn.html

As they say, "Context is everything."
"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
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Postby alecto » April 15th, 2007, 11:01 pm

Sentio ergo est.
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Postby Guest » April 17th, 2007, 2:59 pm

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