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Do Catholics practice what their current doctrines teach?

Re: The Catholic

Postby Adam » April 23rd, 2007, 2:26 am

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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works and faith

Postby Jesse Hove » April 23rd, 2007, 4:36 am

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oops

Postby Jesse Hove » April 23rd, 2007, 5:37 am

oops I double posted don't know how to delete this.
Last edited by Jesse Hove on April 23rd, 2007, 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jesse Hove » April 23rd, 2007, 5:39 am

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Faith and Works 2

Postby Jesse Hove » April 23rd, 2007, 5:49 am

::An evangelical protestant friend of mine criticized me the other day because I had told her that I believed faith IS good works

Adam,

I agree with you that Faith and Works are similiar in the sense that they are both from God, however the bible has given them seperate definitions and so must we.

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
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Re: Faith and Works 2

Postby Adam » April 23rd, 2007, 6:26 am

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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Re: Faith and Works 2

Postby alecto » April 23rd, 2007, 2:02 pm

Sentio ergo est.
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The Historical Critique

Postby Jesse Hove » April 25th, 2007, 9:07 am

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Re: The Historical Critique

Postby Adam » April 25th, 2007, 6:52 pm

::Works = "being a jew" faith = "faithfully waiting for the coming of christ" because many historians believe the apostles believed Christ would come in there life time, this waiting would have been very real for them right? Although there is that verse somewhere in the epistles where paul is telling his followers to stop worrying about when specifically Christ will return.

You have it essentially. I would encourage you to read the book of the prophet Habakkuk; I am convinced that it is central to Paul's understanding of how Jews and Gentiles ought to live in the end of time while waiting for the return of the messiah: think and speak and act according to the reality that Christ foretold but which is not yet realized on this earth. In short, "faithfulness" is a way of interpreting the Jewish Law as though you only had one day left to live: what would you do? who would you spend time with and talk with? What would you say to them? You probably wouldn't bother to get married. You'd probably not plant a new field. You'd probably not invest in the stock market. You would spread the Gospel, and love people like you were almost out of time. That is faith.

::If this is how works is to be interpreted then James famous Faith without works is dead line does'nt really make sense does it? Oh wait.......the word in James is deeds.........interesting.

Ah yes, isn't that fascinating? It is always strange how well and quickly it comes into focus. For James, unlike for Paul, the issue is not Jewish and Gentile identity, but of Paul's more libertine students emphasizing freedom but forgetting that, while everything is permissible, not everything is beneficial.

::Faith is still kind of close to what we commonly believe it to be. So that is a good thing. This is kind of a scary thought to think what I thought works to be in the bible, is actually not what it is.

It is true, faith as trust is still most essential in understanding. But I think of the prophets who refused to bow to the Babylonian god, saying "if you throw us into the fire, God will save us, but even if He does not, we will not worship your god." That is where faith meets belief and then surpasses it: even when we cannot admit to being certain of God and of His will for us, still we live as though it is true. Is this not what we do in our relationships? We do not always need to think or feel loving to speak and act love with one another.

The solution, of course, is not to then conclude that what we do, and not what we think, is what will earn us righteousness and eternal life, but to realize that faithfulness, how we think and how we live, is a Doctor's prescription for how we can steadily get well, shake off the disease of sin that still rules our body, find peace and move closer to God. Now that we have been reconciled to God through Christ's death, in which we die in our baptism, how much more will we work out our salvation with fear and trembling through Christ's resurrected life, in which we are reborn in our obedience and our joy.

Good deeds are not how we are saved, they are what we are saved for. As death is a symptom of sin, so eternal life is nothing more than a symptom of holiness, which is the true blessing and the true goal of a Christian life.

Blessings on your continued venture outside of the box.

Adam
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