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a question for Orthodox and Catholic Christians

a question for Orthodox and Catholic Christians

Postby Fea_Istra » April 24th, 2007, 1:10 am

Hi :)
I have a question for the Orthodox and Catholic Christians on this board, as well as anyone who knows about this topic. I don't really understand the reasons for confessing one's sins to a priest (member of the clergy) in order to be forgiven, and to take Communion. But I'm really curious, and I would appreciate any help about this :) I know there is a thread about this already, but it deals with theological differences between Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox, and my question is a bit different...

I was wondering where this whole idea is from. I can't find it in the Bible... I think that it is enough to confess sins directly to God without the priest as a witness, because Christ is the only mediator between us and God (Hebrews). I fully agree with confessing sins to other Christians, and keeping each other accountable. I also agree with asking forgiveness from people you have hurt in the past. But do you believe that people are not forgiven if they pray to God for forgiveness without a priest, but just on their own? Jesus told the Apostles that if they forgive someone's sins, they are forgiven, but this is because of the Holy Spirit, not because of position in a church...also this just seems to imply that the Apostles/all believers have an active role in granting forgiveness, but it does not imply that God can't do it by Himself.

Also, my friend goes to a Russian Orthodox church and she told me that they are not allowed to take Communion without going to Confession first. But in the Bible, all it says about this is:
1Corinthians 11:27-29,

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
{emphasis mine}

To me, this passage does not even imply confessing to a member of the clergy, but just to be a real believer, realize what Communion is, and to 'examine himself'...i guess confess sins to God.

I was wondering if there is anything in the Bible that suggests or supports this. I don't believe that the writings of saints/church fathers hold the same authority as the Bible, but if you have any quotes I would appreciate it.

thanks :)
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Re: a question for Orthodox and Catholic Christians

Postby Adam » April 24th, 2007, 1:30 am

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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Postby Fea_Istra » April 24th, 2007, 3:20 am

Hi Adam, thanks for the thoughtful reply :)

I see what you are saying about looking at forgiveness in a more subjective way. I see it as an activity that influences ourselves, as you said, and also our relationship with God. (which goes beyond having our name in the Book of Life, as important as that is). I think these two things are directly related to each other, and if you are restored by forgiveness you are immediately closer to God as a result. In my mind, this is where the objective and the subjective merge, although I see the importance of looking at forgiveness more subjectively..because in the end, it's supposed to change us and make us more like Christ, not just get us into heaven.

But all these things are really connected to one another. The only thing that is not affected by sin is how much God loves us.

Do you mean that confessing to someone gives us a stronger convinction that we are forgiven? I think that may well be the case, and in my own life I sometimes needed to confess my sin to another person to feel forgiven. I guess the reason why people often go to a priest/minister is because they are mature Christians and are qualified to give some advice, and it is assumed that they would never tell anyone about it. I guess that depends on whether you want advice; once I just talked to a close friend and they prayed with me, and it was enough.

However, I wonder...shouldn't we be completely certain that God never breaks His promises, and would always forgive if we truly repent? We don't hear God telling us that He forgives us, like we hear the minister, but maybe we should just trust Him without evidence.."blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe". and often after I confess my sins to God I feel very calm and right with Him, and I believe that I am truly forgiven. I've found that I've grown closer to God when I just chose to trust Him (it's a bit like jumping off a cliff in the dark, haha) and this is one of the ways our faith is tested. I mean..faith is a choice, not just feelings (although that's included too).

I believe that God is always willing to forgive, He is just waiting for us to ask. That's why I think that He always accepts our confession, whether it is directly to Him, or with someone else as a witness.... but you brought up an interesting point about the subjective experience of forgiveness. I haven't really thought about that much.
I don't think it's wrong to confess to someone, but I'm just wondering if it is necessary..maybe I'm asking the wrong question, and should instead ask, "what is best"? I'll think about that.

fea
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Postby Adam » April 24th, 2007, 7:00 am

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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Postby Fea_Istra » April 24th, 2007, 4:36 pm

"Where, except in uncreated light, can the darkness be drowned?" ~CS Lewis
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Postby Adam » April 24th, 2007, 5:25 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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Postby Fea_Istra » April 24th, 2007, 11:46 pm

Hi,
I agree that God works through people, that is very true. I also agree that often people forget this (I forgot this until I read your post, haha). But I don't think this means that He can't communicate Himself to us in any other way...in my experience, there have been times when God spoke to me through people, but also times when He spoke to me directly.
"If we seek God, we must go to where the Scriptures say He is most fully present, in people"
True, but that includes us, as well. The Holy Spirit is in us as well as in other people.
I think that both of these ways work well, and we shouldn't forget about either of them. I'm glad that you notice God in others when He is working through them, that's great :) do you think that it is impossible for it to be any other way, though?

fea
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Postby Adam » April 25th, 2007, 12:53 am

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Postby Fea_Istra » April 26th, 2007, 4:32 am

Adam,
Thanks :smile: and I appreciate your replies! I have to say that I often forget about the importance of Christian fellowship, but I've been thinking about it more the past few days

:tongue:

haha keep in mind that I do agree that when Christians gather together, God is there and is working in them. Faith is definitely not something that you do by yourself in your free time :lol: there is a reason we are called the Body of Christ..

I would like to comment on the Holy Spirit. I've always had the impression that the Spirit is really mysterious and I understand very little about it. Here is what I believe. I believe that the Spirit is present in believers from the moment they are "born again":

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

(John 3:3-5)

I think that the Holy Spirit allows us to repent, get a deeper knowledge of God, and sustains faith. He also allows us to obey God, helps us change ("new people"), and affects other people through us...

That's how I interpret verses like:

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
(1 Corinthians 3:16)

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(John 14:26)

4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
(Acts 1:4-8)

(I think I used different translations for each of these quotes haha...yay Bible Gateway :toothy-grin: )

I've never heard your view of the Holy Spirit before, is it from a teaching? I'm curious how you arrived at it.
Last edited by Fea_Istra on September 8th, 2007, 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Adam » April 26th, 2007, 8:42 pm

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Postby Fea_Istra » April 27th, 2007, 2:37 am

Hi Adam,
I don't have enough knowledge of the Bible or of Greek to comment on your interpretation of the verse from Corinthians. Maybe you're right that the authors meant it more in terms of the Body of Christ, not individual believers. But it seems to me that in order for the Spirit to unite all believers, it needs to be present in each person too. Since there is one Holy Spirit, not a different one for each Christian, there is still one 'temple', and perhaps the Spirit is most effective when believers gather together. But the Spirit works through people, so it makes sense to me that He is in each person while still being able to unite everyone into one whole. I don't see these as mutually exclusive concepts....

Communion:
That's a good point about the family table...I can see how Communion would unite people, then and now. It seems that there is even more to it though...(but not less. I agree that it unifies believers), because the believers are not just eating and drinking in 'God's name', but are supposedly eating and drinking something that is either literally or symbolically the Lord's blood and body. He said to do this in remembrance of Him, and that each time we take Communion we "proclaim the Lord's death until he comes". 1 Corinthians 11:26. I am suggesting that maybe there is a more eternal perspective on Communion, one that transcends the customs of the time? In the end, the people are not just sitting together, but eating together. It's as if they are 'taking in' salvation by eating and drinking. Without this concept, Communion seems like mere tradition.

Maybe we are both right. On one hand,
"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54

And also,
"Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf". 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

It's almost as if by taking Communion we are participating in Christ's sacrifice (what I was trying to say) and being united with other believers as the Body (what you said). So maybe both views are right.

I think that Christ could be present in both Communion and community. I don't see these as mutually exclusive things. A person could easily think both ways, as I do. Of course we should honour God by truly being and living like a family of believers, and it is said in the Bible that how we are with others affects how we are with God. A person can not really love God if he hates his neighbour and isn't willing to repent of that sin, and change. But at the same time, I disagree with you that this is how we are forgiven. This is a condition to forgiveness, yes, and it can not happen without this type of unity. But I believe that there is also a relationship between God and the individual person, and this is what allows the unity in the first place. Without God working in each person, the unity would be superficial, but if He is present in each one of us, we can have real fellowship with one another. I don't think that this is 'magical' in any way.

I guess what I'm saying is, can't it be both ways at the same time?

fea~
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Postby Adam » April 27th, 2007, 8:55 pm

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Postby AllanS » April 27th, 2007, 11:15 pm

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

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Postby Adam » April 28th, 2007, 2:26 am

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Postby rusmeister » April 29th, 2007, 3:21 am

Hi Fea!
Assuming that you would really like an understanding of why we have Confession, and are not seeking debate...


An official answer from the Orthodox Church of America (OCA):

Confessing in the Presence of a Priest
QUESTION:

If we can make confession to God without the priest, then why do we have confession with a priest present?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANSWER:

In the early Church, confession was public; that is, one confessed one's sins in the presence of the entire faith community. When this became impractical, it was the priest who "stood in" for the community, as its presiding officer and as its witness to the penitent's repentance.

Further, while we can indeed confess directly to God -- even a casual reading of the daily prayers reveals that we should do this -- we often find that we need help and advice in overcoming the very things we have confessed.

We do not confess "to" the priest; rather, we confess to God "in the presence of" the priest who, as the prayer before Confession clearly states, is God's "witness" and who, having witnessed our confession of sins offers pastoral advice on how we can better our lives and overcome the very things we can confess. Just as one would not attempt to diagnose, much less cure, one's own physical ailments, so too one should not attempt to diagnose, much less cure, one's own spiritual ailments.

It is often the case that those who object to revealing their sins in the presence of a priest or to seek his advice have no qualms about revealing their sins to their neighbors, friends, psychiatrists, and so on, usually with the intention of obtaining advice -- advice that is not necessarily godly or spiritually profitable, or even just plain "good," for that matter.

Many years ago, a woman cornered my wife at coffee hour and told her that she was having an affair. She asked my wife's advice.

My wife advised her that perhaps she should speak to me about this. The women replied, "But he's a priest -- I couldn't tell him that!" This is somewhat akin to the person who finds a huge lump on his or her body, goes to the doctor, and then asks the receptionist to diagnose it. No doubt the receptionist would suggest that he or she have a seat and allow the doctor to look at it, only to find that the person with the huge lump replies, "But the lump's much, much to big for me to show to the doctor!"

So, we confess in the presence of the priest to acknowledge that our sins, whether we wish to accept it or not, affect the entire faith community on the one hand, and that we cannot "heal ourselves" on the other. The priest is there to help us overcome those things for which we seek forgiveness, to give advice that a friend or neighbor might not be in a position to give, and to bear witness on behalf of the faith community, of which he is the spiritual father, that we have indeed repented and been forgiven by God.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUESTION:

Can't I go to God, who already knows what I've done, and confess?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANSWER:

Yes, one can confess directly to God -- but refusing to confess in the presence of a priest implies that one can also be one's own spiritual physician. If this were so, then one wouldn't find that one is generally confessing the same sin, over and over again -- which not only implies that one is not making progress in overcoming one's sin and also implies, perhaps, that one really doesn't want help in overcoming one's sins in the first place! [There are indeed those who commit certain sins, ask God's forgiveness, feel that the slate is "clean," and then plan the next occasion upon which the same sin can once again be committed. This is not "confession" in any sense, and this does not generate forgiveness, precisely because there is no desire to "repent," or "change."] On the spiritual level, one who refuses to seek spiritual advice from one's father confessor is somewhat like the person who refuses to see a surgeon because he or she would rather perform his or her own brain surgery. While I suppose one could pull out a few knives and a can opener and attempt this, it is not likely that it will be a success!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUESTION:

Not to be critical, I like the idea of confession.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANSWER:

Then use it as one of the means of working out your salvation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUESTION:

However, if someone has commited a sin they want nobody to know about except that person and God, then what's the problem with confessing only to God since he is the only one who can forgive sins.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANSWER:

By hiding what one has done, one commits another sin. Have you ever told a lie in order to get yourself out of a situation, only to find out that by telling the lie you are required to tell additonal lies -- and so on and so on and so on?

Consider this: One day, when our daughter was four years old, I was taking a mid-afternoon nap on the couch. She came running into the living room in an agitated state, demanding that I give her a kleenex. [In the past, she had always gotten her own kleenex, so this was rather odd.] I told her to get her own kleenex, as she had done so many times in the past, but she insisted I give one to her. I did. She ran up the steps to her bedroom and slammed the door shut.

A few minutes later, she woke me up, asking for a piece of scotch tape. Again, this was odd behavior, since she knew where the tape was and never hesitated to get it herself. So, once again, I got up and gave her the tape. And, once again, she bolted up the steps and slammed her bedroom door.

Figuring that something was up -- the silence was deafening! -- I went up stairs, where I found the kleenex taped to the wall, about two feet from the floor. I asked her what this was all about; "nothing" was her reply.

Since in my opinion "nothing" usually means "something," I removed the kleenex that was taped to the wall, as she watched in absolute horror.

There, under the kleenex, was a crayon mark.

" What's this?" I asked.
"Nothing," she replied.

But it wasn't "nothing." She knew quite well that coloring on the walls was "something" that was clearly not acceptable. She "sinned" by doing that which she had been told was not permitted -- coloring on the wall. And she tried to cover it up, hoping that I would not notice.

Now, had she not asked for the kleenex and tape, I probably would have never noticed her colorful "sin" in the first place, as I rarely, if ever, inspected the walls for crayon marks. But by trying to cover up the crayon marks in the hope that I wouldn't notice them, she only made them more obvious, and committed a second sin in the process -- one by which she tried to deceive me.

My point here is that when we refuse to confess what we have done, we commit a second sin -- a sin of pride, by which we are unwilling to acknowledge what we have done to another person, often justifying this by thinking, "Well, I didn't really hurt anyone." We also sin by thinking that we are "pulling the wool over" God's eyes, which we cannot do. He knows our hearts and He alone judges the sincerity of our repentance -- and a key element in genuine repentance is acknowledging to God and to others that we are indeed sinners.

I assure you that there is no sin that would shock a priest out of his sensibilities; at the same time, should a priest in whose presence you choose to reveal even the most shocking sin in a spirit of true repentance reject you for doing so, consider it a blessing and find another confessor.

But I don't know a priest who would shun one who genuinely repents and genuinely seeks the means by which even the most serious sin can be overcome and brought under control, and I know plenty of priests who would, in fact, applaud one who confesses openly, honestly, and with a true spirit of repentance.

A saint of the Church once opined that the angels in heaven dance for joy when a sinner repents; believe me, the priests on earth do the same thing!

So continue to ask God daily for forgiveness, but please do not overlook the need everyone has -- including priests! -- to seek guidance and direction in overcoming sin. And never forget that, if it true that God often heals the physically ill by guiding the hands of a surgeon, He also heals the spiritually ill by guiding the words and advice of a priest.




Do you have a question on the Orthodox Faith, Christianity, or the Orthodox Church in America? Contact Fr. John Matusiak at info@oca.org
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