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a question for Orthodox and Catholic Christians

Postby fopdoodle » May 9th, 2007, 10:14 pm

I once tried to describe confession to a friend as, "the agony/joy of personal communication." I always feel like I am very much in my own skin when I go to confession and therefore somehow more painfully aware of my own sins. It is truly humbling.
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Postby Dunrobin » May 10th, 2007, 4:46 pm

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Postby Fea_Istra » May 11th, 2007, 4:06 am

sorry I have been away for so long! I've been thinking about this topic.

Rusmeister, thank you for the thorough answer, it has helped me understand confession a bit better. I can see the benefits of confessing to a priest, and I know that our sins affect our relationship with the whole Body of believers, as well as with God. I still have some questions, such as, why can't we confess sins to other believers (not just priests) to repair the relationship with the Body...and while the priest can give good advice, can't God do much more to heal us? Or am I just being needlessly stubborn :tongue: I guess I'm still trying to understand, but I'm learning :)

Adam, I think that we are all connected, but to tell you the truth I'm having a hard time with the idea that no individuals exist at all. I don't want to be separate from other people, or, more importantly, from God (in fact when I accepted God I accepted the fact that we were not made to be independent..). But I believe that our consciousness is from the soul (hence we can be conscious after death), and an element of being 'conscious' is recognizing that 'this is me' and 'this is not me'. If there were no individuals, how would we be able to distinguish ourselves from others and each have a consciousness? lol sorry this question is so confusing..

I certainly agree that one of the ways God works in the world is through our relationships with each other, and that the unity of believers is central to the Body of Christ. It seems to me though that in order for this to happen, each person must have a relationship with Christ (and by being 'in Him', with the Father..sorry that's what I meant before, I just phrased it wrong).

What about hermits? haha joke. :tongue:

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen" (Matthew 6:5-6 NIV)
If God can hear our prayers when we are alone, doesn't that imply some sort of a direct relationship with Him? (I know that we know the Father through Christ, but when I say 'God' I refer to the Trinity, including the Son)

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body" (1 Corinthians 6:18-20 NIV).
In context, this verse seems to be talking about the literal body, not the Body of believers...doesn't this mean that the Holy Spirit is within each person?

Do you think it's necessary to confess to a priest in order to be forgiven, or is it just helpful? Sometimes I confess my sins to a close friend/family member so that they can keep me accountable, and if I've done something wrong to someone I go to the person to apologize. I know we should "confess our sins to each other". But I heard that Catholics believe that a priest is necessary, and John 20:21-23 is said to support this view. I think that since all believers have the Holy Spirit, the verse is talking about either just the apostles, or all Christians. I guess I view priests/pastors as people who are called to teach us and help us spiritually, but I don't think that they have a special power to forgive sins, because Hebrews makes it clear that Christ is our only mediator.

I'm not trying to start a debate, and I'm not here to prove a point...I just don't really understand confession. I can see the benefits for it, and I understand why people would want to go to a priest... but I'm not sure if it's really for me, because I always felt that confessing to God (directly) is sufficient, humbling, and comforting.

*thinks*
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Postby rusmeister » May 11th, 2007, 4:44 am

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Postby Roonwit » May 22nd, 2007, 9:24 pm

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Postby Fea_Istra » May 28th, 2007, 10:56 pm

Hi Rusmeister, sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I've been busy but I've been thinking about this.

"Everything comes back to what you accept as authority"
Well I do believe that the Bible has more authority than the writings of the Church Fathers/saints, but I also see value in reading their works. For example, I think it's important to read both the old and the modern books, because this helps us remember the 'essence' of Christianity and not get too caught up in modern 'trends' and such. I don't see old books as 'better' than new ones though (after all, they were once new themselves), just tested by time and many people.

However, I evaluate everything I read, and every tradition, according to Scripture. If it contradicts something Jesus or the apostles said, I no longer want to follow it. I guess in this way, I do support sola scriptura, because I think that the Bible should determine tradition, not vice versa.

As to interpretation of the Bible, I know that I can't understand it all myself (in fact it would be arrogant for me to think so), and I think it's important to gain background knowledge in order to interpret it correctly. However, James 1: 5-6 says:

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind"

I do believe that the Holy Spirit lives in us and is guiding us to Truth if we rely on Him. In the end, I would rather trust that God is leading me in the right direction, and rely on Him more than on man's teachings.

"When you say 'sufficient', do you mean sufficient for your own feelings about yourself? And what do you STILL not understand after reading the OCA explanation?"

What I meant by ‘sufficient’ is that when I confess my sins to God I believe that He hears me, is willing to forgive me, and by faith I accept the forgiveness and no longer feel guilty. I don’t think it’s wrong to confess to a priest, but I do not think it’s necessary, and is more of a personal preference than a rule. However, one of my Russian Orthodox friends told me that at her church the priest doesn’t let anyone have Communion without Confession. I understand that if you go to an Orthodox church, you should obey its teachings, and if I went there I would confess to a priest so as not to cause division and be a stumbling block to others. However, I don't believe this is necessary for all Christians to do.

Here's what I don't really understand:
I think that all believers are saints and "priests", and the 'clergy' do not have a better access to God than the 'laity' do. We all have the Holy Spirit.. Sure, we need different positions in the Church, as the Bible says (teachers, prophets, healers, etc..and we need people to perform baptism, etc)...but this is to build up one another as brothers and sisters in Christ, and to be a functioning 'Body', not to give people salvation and forgiveness. Isn't Christ the only mediator we need? (Hebrews). We live under the New Covenant, not the Old one, and I think the role of 'priests' has changed since that time. Perhaps the Apostles had more 'power' than we do (I don't know), but we all have equal access to Him.

However, some denominations give the clergy special 'powers' to absolve sin, etc...I know Christ said "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." but I do not see how this applies to priests more than to other believers, because we all have the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that this applies either only to the disciples Jesus was talking to, or to all Christians. This means that God is working in us when we forgive others and are forgiven, and that forgiveness in general is a very powerful thing. But the Bible never tells us that God can't forgive us directly as well.

I guess in the end, I just don't see confession to a priest as 'better' or 'more effective' than confession directly to God, except as a personal preference. I'm fine with people confessing their sins to priests, and I wouldn't ever tell someone to become Protestant if they feel that God is leading them to another denomination. I think that God can be found in all Christian denominations, and as long as the person believes in Christ and follows Him they are saved. I think the Church is all believers from all denominations, from all times.

I guess what I'm wondering is...there are some Catholic and Orthodox traditions that I can't find in the Bible, and I'm wondering where they are from. I'm not looking for debate, I actually do want to know...does someone know of any good books where this information is found?

cheers
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Postby Karen » May 29th, 2007, 12:59 am

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Postby rusmeister » May 29th, 2007, 4:08 am

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Postby Fea_Istra » May 29th, 2007, 5:14 am

Hi Rusmeister,

Every church and denomination seems to have an 'interpretation' that they believe to be correct. How should I choose one; how do I know if I should be Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant? How do I know the Church Fathers had it right, and if the people who say that only their interpretation is correct weren't protecting their own interests? I've prayed about it, and I'm trusting that God wouldn't lead me astray. Perhaps I'll never have the
'right' understanding, I'm not sure if anyone has that. But even if I don't understand and don't see, I'll just keep on trusting Him and try to live by what He said. All we really need is to have God as the foundation of our lives...

I am convinced that faith is a way of life, not just a bunch of doctrine. I'm sure you'd agree. All that I really need to know is that if I have sincere faith in Christ and follow His commands, and live in light and by the Spirit, I would be on the right path. I'm not just talking about salvation, but about the whole Christian life. Since I am human and accustomed to living in darkness, I need God to change me, by faith in His Son. If I come to a church and see that people there believe in Christ and that He rose from the dead, and if I see them loving one another and following God's commands, then God is there..no matter how old the church is, or how it originated, etc. I'm all for knowledge and understanding, and much of my interpretation of the Bible is based on what others have said or written: everyone from St. Augustine to CS Lewis to my pastor.

Thanks for the reference to Schmemann's diaries, and Karen thanks for suggesting the book, I'll check them out :)


I have a question..this is out of curiosity. Do you believe that all believers in Christ make up the Church, or only those belonging to the Orthodox Church? I'm asking because I'm not sure what the Orthodox believe about this, and I've gotten very mixed responses in the past. I've heard some say that there is no Church outside the Orthodox Church :??: I believe that the Church is made up of all Christians. "Right" is following God, and "wrong" is disobeying God..and I think everyone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God and rose from the dead is following God, and is "born of God" (1 John 5:1). This includes Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic Christians, since they all believe that...in the end, we all follow Christ, since He can not be divided. I mean..this isn't some sort of relativism, this is saying that everyone who follows Christ is in Him, which is what the Bible says. Soo..I think that's the Church..what do you think? :)

By the way, nice sig! :)

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"Dear sirs,
I am." "

Well, I agree with Chesterton!
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Postby rusmeister » May 31st, 2007, 3:26 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby rusmeister » May 31st, 2007, 3:09 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby Fea_Istra » June 1st, 2007, 12:06 am

Hi Rusmeister,
thanks for the reply.

I'll keep on researching the history of the Church.

"So the idea of His Church dying and springing up someplace else doesn't work for me - the Church has continuously existed for 2,000 years"

I don't believe that the Church has died, I just define it differently... Why should it be related to history or the Apostolic Succession at all? Why are these things important? I guess that's my main question; everything revolves around this. I know that history is very important in the development of the Church worldwide, but why does it have to define it?

I do believe that salvation is just between you and God, but that the Church is involved in sanctification. I believe we're saved through faith only, but that if the faith is genuine it would cause us to love God and want to obey Him (the Holy Spirit enables us to do this), and as we get to know God more we would be changed. This would lead to good works. So faith and works are not separate in the end, and the latter is the evidence of the former. But since we can't earn salvation, I believe it's only by faith.

About the quote; I see what he is saying, but again, Protestantism is only 'individualistic' if the Church is defined as a particular 'type' of Christianity. If I believed that, for example, the Orthodox church is the only Church, but continued going to a Protestant church out of my own preferences, that would be wrong and individualistic. However, the reason I like my church is because it helps me focus more on God, and that's the reason I liked it to begin with. I'm not trying to say that the Orthodox church can't do this; if it does this for you, that's great! I don't see a problem with people liking to worship God in different ways, the only thing that matters is if its in 'Spirit and in truth'.

hmm..the foundations of our views are different. Maybe I'm being simplistic, I don't know.
Last edited by Fea_Istra on June 1st, 2007, 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby rusmeister » June 1st, 2007, 3:04 am

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Postby Fea_Istra » June 1st, 2007, 1:22 pm

Hi Rusmeister,

I guess I have a hard time explaining myself haha...

You see, I'm not at all trying to say that it's oki to define the Church whatever way you feel like. I support the idea of objective Truth.

To me, the "visible" church is a human institution. Surely God has a role in it, but He's there by being in the people (the Holy Spirit) and guiding them. Things like traditions, Apostolic Succession, different denominations, historical development, is just what humans have done with this institution. By tradition, I don't mean things like Communion or Baptism (these were put there by God), but things like worship style and church appearance...and whether you sing contemporary music, hymns, or light candles.

The real Church is transcendent of all this, and could not be removed by any power of hell or anything humans can do (such as..dividing it into denominations). The other day, I was reading Jesus' prayer in John 17: 20-26. Once we become Christian, we are 'in' God (I don't pretend to know what this means, exactly...even Lewis said he couldn't figure it out lol). Jesus prayed that we would all be 'one'. This doesn't imply a visible denominational connection, but the same sort of connection as we have to God ("that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you"). This 'one' is the Body of Christ, which is also the Church.

If you say that only Orthodox (or Catholic, etc) Christians are in the Church, it's like you're saying that others might be 'in Christ' but can never be in this one Body. But I think these two things go together, automatically. We're baptised into the Church, and we all have the same baptism.

I've always imagined the Church as something not 'of' the world. Everyone who is saved is not of the world, but of God. This includes non Orthodox Christians. If they are not part of the Church, there are two implications:
1. They are 'of' the world. But this makes no sense to me.
2. They are also of God, but this makes the Church a meaningless concept, and means that Christ is divided.

Its' Christ who makes us all 'one', not Apostolic Succession. And in the end, the invisible things are more powerful than the visible ones. Sometimes, the visible things can be 'manifestations' of the invisible, perhaps this is the case for Communion and Baptism. Or the gathering of Christians on Sunday morning.

So..that's my view...I hope it's understandable, because I have to go somewhere, and in a very big hurry...haha...

fea

edit: I think I have an anology to my view.... In the New Testament, the Apostles were surprised when the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit. This suggests that God might not care about historical development as much as we think. The Orthodox/Catholic church..is like the "Jews", and the Protestants are like the "Gentiles". haha.
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Postby rusmeister » June 1st, 2007, 3:03 pm

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