This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

Pope: Other Christians not true churches

Catholic and other "churches"

Postby Ben2747 » July 18th, 2007, 7:30 pm

I sporadically contribute to this forum, but always leave in frustration. I think rusmeister is right. This isn't really a good venue to methodically work our way back to first principles, and slowly build carefully constructed arguments that all parties will find compelling. So consequently, there are a lot of circular debates which go back to essential differences in definitions of terms and principles from which subsequent conclusions are drawn. I'm not going to try to contribute that much, and am going to keep myself from getting into arguments. Stanley has always been better at that, and maintains his equilibrium better than I.

That being said, with regard to the Congregation's statements regarding the Catholic definition of "Church" - I would encourage people to read it, rather than popular reports about what it contains. I think, in the first place, it is an attempt to create internal (within the Catholic Church) clarification regarding the definition of the term "Church." This is the right of any organization that expects to create some common vision within its own community. Secondly, it is an assistance to dialogue with non-Catholic denominations, because they understand the other party's definition of a critical term. That doesn't mean they have to agree with it, but they know what the other person means by a particular word. Thirdly, I think non-Catholic Christians (I'm not talking about Anglicans, Orthodox, Copts, etc. - this will already be a familiar concept to them) might consider the implication of the definition. If you look at the document, you realize it's an internal instruction for Catholic theologians who are attempting to understand a legitimate construct for ecumenical dialogue. They have been asking questions of the Congregation regarding what sense they should consider non-Catholic religious communities to be "churches," or "members of the Church." This document really just summarizes previous teaching on the subject. What it reminds Catholic theologians is that the Catholic Church draws its "churchitude" from Christ, the unbroken succession of the mission, sacerdotal, priestly, and teaching authority from the original Apostles which Christ commissioned to go out into the world, and the Sacraments which are the normal means through which Christ unites himself to his people. In other words, it's not just a "Church" because of personal holiness, belief, common intention, etc. God makes the Church, rather than man. That's really the core concept in the self-identity of the Catholic Church. The document also defines how different communities are united to the entity called the Catholic Church. The document spends just as much, if not more, time extolling their virtues and effects, as detailing the means in which these communities depart from the Catholic definition of "Church."

I don't think it's productive to try to argue for or against the document - it's just the Church reminding its theologians of its common definition of a term. Obviously, Evangelicals wouldn't agree that Apostolic succession was essential to the term, nor that a transubstantiated Eucharist was the essential life blood of their existence. Nor would the Orthodox be expected to define unity with the Roman Bishop an essential element of their full participation in the Body of Christ. The Catholic Church doesn't expect anybody other than Catholics to agree with its use of the term. It is helpful, however, to state clearly its position, and that's what Cardinal Levada's responses attempt to achieve. It is not a denial of the sincerity of the belief of non-Catholics, a statement about their future disposition in the economy of salvation, or even a comparison of the nature of their personal relationship with Christ in comparison to that of Catholics.


I have attached a link to the actual document, for those who care to read it. It's quite short.
Ben2747
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Jul 2007

Postby rusmeister » July 18th, 2007, 7:32 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Re: Catholic and other "churches"

Postby Stanley Anderson » July 18th, 2007, 8:17 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Postby Guest » July 18th, 2007, 8:36 pm

Guest
 

Re: Catholic and other "churches"

Postby Ben2747 » July 18th, 2007, 8:41 pm

[quote="Stanley Anderson"]Ben! So glad to see a post from you (note to self: why don't I call you more often?)

Stanley - You politely point out that I'm a wind-bag. Think of it like the medieval Gloss, although in this case, the glossalia probably directly contradict the text and lead to some sort of new and abhorrent heresy.

You asked earlier about some sort of prayer compendium similar to the Book of Common Prayer. We're visiting my parents, and they have this awesome book that their priest got for them in Rome - it's published by his seminary. I'll see if I can dredge up a copy for you. Never seen anything like it.
Ben2747
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Jul 2007

Postby Guest » July 18th, 2007, 8:46 pm

Hey rusmeister,

I just thought of a Russion Orthodox priest who made a great impact on my spiritual life. In college we read Anthony Bloom's Beginning to Pray. It challenged my attitutes towards prayer and about entering the presence of God (Bloom describes it as entering the cage of a tiger). I still have a copy somewhere. I've given copies out as gifts quite a bit.

- Dan -
Guest
 

Re: Catholic and other "churches"

Postby mitchellmckain » July 18th, 2007, 9:47 pm

Last edited by mitchellmckain on July 18th, 2007, 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mitchellmckain
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Jul 2007

Re: Catholic and other "churches"

Postby Stanley Anderson » July 18th, 2007, 9:58 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Postby rusmeister » July 19th, 2007, 3:56 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Re: Catholic and other "churches"

Postby Adam Linton » July 19th, 2007, 4:49 am

Regards.

Adam L.
Last edited by Adam Linton on July 27th, 2007, 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
we have not loosely through silence permitted things to pass away as in a dream
User avatar
Adam Linton
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Columbia Falls, MT

Re: Catholic and other "churches"

Postby Adam Linton » July 19th, 2007, 5:07 am

Last edited by Adam Linton on July 27th, 2007, 3:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
we have not loosely through silence permitted things to pass away as in a dream
User avatar
Adam Linton
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Columbia Falls, MT

Re: Catholic and other "churches"

Postby Ben2747 » July 19th, 2007, 3:46 pm

Ben2747
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Jul 2007

Re: Catholic and other "churches"

Postby Stanley Anderson » July 19th, 2007, 4:00 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Postby Guest » July 20th, 2007, 1:42 am

Guest
 

Postby rusmeister » July 20th, 2007, 4:37 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

PreviousNext

Return to Religion, Science, and Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 69 guests