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The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

Postby girlfreddy » September 30th, 2007, 12:16 pm

How would telling people to be nice to one another get a man crucified? What government would execute Mister Rogers or Captain Kangaroo?
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attitudes about work/money

Postby liriodendron » October 1st, 2007, 1:59 am

Good topic. I'm going to at least read the summery.

I've been wondering how our world got to the crazy place where you have to work so hard just to keep a roof over your head.

I guess the reason people condemn those "who don't seem to either want to work or work less than they could/can" is the feeling that they aren't carrying their fair share - that someone is having to work harder to make up for their slackness.
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Motive to work

Postby liriodendron » October 1st, 2007, 2:52 am

The first thought that came to mind while reading the wikipedia article about the reason that protestants had a changed attitude towards work
- was that they were often thrown into situations where hard work was necessary: in that when protestant groups were persecuted and moved to new places (like America, but others also) they no longer had their old economic foundations and had to build a new livelihood and that developed habits which yielded motivating rewards.
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Postby girlfreddy » October 1st, 2007, 4:03 am

How would telling people to be nice to one another get a man crucified? What government would execute Mister Rogers or Captain Kangaroo?
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Postby Coyote Goodfellow » October 1st, 2007, 12:47 pm

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Postby Josh » October 1st, 2007, 3:17 pm

I'm not sure it's accurate to say that protestantism caused capitalism. The protestant work ethic, after all, involves work in obedience to God, for the glory of God, not for pecuniary gain. In the early U.S. colonies, Puritanism was decidedly non-capitalistic. John Winthrop's "City on a Hill," as he envisioned it for the Puritans, was a rigid communal economy. It was a theocracy, not the sort of approach to government or economy that would spawn economic freedom. The rise of economic liberalism in the American colonies instead was, in part, a reaction against the rigidness of Puritan society. Winthrop and others in the early American Puritan tradition, though, emphasized community over individual property rights. Perhaps the early European protestant tradition was a bit more liberal; Calvin, after all, was an early humanist and individualism was at the core of protestantism, then and now. That humanism (in the sense the word was used prior to the latter 20th century) spawned Locke, Smith, and capitalism as well as protestantism. But Calvin's Geneva likewise was a theocracy and a model for Winthrop in the U.S. It's probably more accurate to say that the protestant work ethic and capitalism evolved together under the influence of economic liberalism.

As to the origin of the protestant work ethic, it is a return, like what all of protestantism sought to be, to scripture as a primary source of religious truth. Hard work, in the Hebrew Bible, exists before the fall of mankind (Gen 2:15) and is encouraged (e.g., Ecc 9:10), and the same emphasis on work (out of obedience to God) can be seen in the NT evangelical letters. So I don't think that it is an idea originating with protestantism. It was the Hebrew work ethic before it became the protestant work ethic.

I do think it's to the detriment of protestantism and the Church that the original Puritanical economic incentive, which is to work hard for the glory of God, was replaced by a work ethic founded primarily on pecuniary gain.
ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby girlfreddy » October 1st, 2007, 4:42 pm

How would telling people to be nice to one another get a man crucified? What government would execute Mister Rogers or Captain Kangaroo?
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Postby Josh » October 1st, 2007, 5:45 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby Karen » October 1st, 2007, 7:59 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby liriodendron » October 2nd, 2007, 2:43 am

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Postby mitchellmckain » October 2nd, 2007, 6:19 am

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re: Protestant work ethic & usury

Postby Ben2747 » October 4th, 2007, 4:09 pm

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Postby Sarah N. » October 4th, 2007, 7:53 pm

Also on this topic you may wish to look at Joseph Pieper's Leisure, the Basis of Culture which I am currently reading. (Well, at least I was reading it until I ran out of leisure time. :undecided: )

*crosses her fingers hoping that she hasn't killed the thread like the last three she posted in. It's hard to type with your fingers crossed.*
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Postby postodave » October 5th, 2007, 4:43 pm

I havn't the time to read all the posts with the care and attention they deserve. I studied Weber under David Lyons, himself a Calvinist, though I wasn't at a Christian College or anything like that. Lyons pointed out to us that Weber had misunderstood Calvin. Calvin never said that prosperity was a sign of salvation. Also many of the people Weber quotes as later examples were not Christians but Deists. Good to read on the way in which Protestantism affected development in the Americas is Michael Novak, but also don't forget to take a look at Tawney on Religion and the rise of capitalism and on the whole usury thing Michael Schluter and Prabhu Guptara are interesting. Also interesting recently to talk to a Christian who was putting his money in an Islamic bank as that seemed a viable alternative to other more capitalist approaches. Guptara makes this point that you have to see the switch to capitalism and unbridled interest in two stages. Calvin takes the first step but as someone says he regards lending at interest as a bit like handling poison. The second stage as people have pointed out in this thread is Adam Smith and co with there humanistic worldview. Oh and you might take a look at Bob Goudzwaard's capitalism and progress. Sorry this is not an argument just a sort of if you want to pursue this try these list.
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Postby girlfreddy » November 9th, 2008, 9:10 pm

How would telling people to be nice to one another get a man crucified? What government would execute Mister Rogers or Captain Kangaroo?
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