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The God Delusion

The God Delusion

Postby postodave » November 12th, 2007, 5:02 pm

So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Postby alecto » November 14th, 2007, 2:28 am

Sentio ergo est.
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Postby AllanS » November 14th, 2007, 9:30 pm

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
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Postby alecto » November 16th, 2007, 1:41 pm

Sentio ergo est.
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Postby AllanS » November 18th, 2007, 12:47 am

Hi Alecto,

I mention evidence only to highlight the fact that empiricists, offended when Christians make their famous leap, make no less a leap themselves.

We can answer only the tiniest subset of all possible questions.

The entire sub-atomic world is shrouded in mystery. Is a given electron here, there, or everywhere?

Time and space (both the past and the future) hide as much again. What did the mating call of the tyrannosaurus sound like? What will the stock market do next week?

If other universes exist, how much can we know of them? Did the Archangel Gabriel floss his teeth this morning?

Even mathematics offers very thin pickings. Since an infinite number of mathematical proofs are infinitely long, they remain forever inaccessible to human reason.

Faced with this towering mountain of invincible ignorance, we pick up the odd pebble of truth and declare ourselves to be 'knowledgeable'. Armed with this pebble, we think ourselves fit to storm the heavens, and proudly declare that "all the evidence" points to God's non-existence.

What a joke.

.
“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
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Postby alecto » November 18th, 2007, 1:12 pm

Sentio ergo est.
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Postby AllanS » November 18th, 2007, 10:01 pm

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
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Postby pb » November 18th, 2007, 11:14 pm

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Postby AllanS » November 19th, 2007, 12:04 am

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
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Postby Karen » November 19th, 2007, 12:54 am

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby alecto » November 19th, 2007, 4:14 am

Greek pistis, from which we translate "faith" is actually a well-defined and relatively narrow concept compared to how we use it today. Apparently, once we were no longer using the original texts or speaking the original languages, we became free to "theologize" the meaning of "faith". 1000 years of this has not been without cost.

The original meaning was like "be leven", meaning to place one's whole heart on a thing. It would be better translated into modern English as "steadfastness" or perhaps "devotion". It was an attitude or emotion of conviction or trust that would make you stand with someone through thick and thin. It's derived from words meaning "to win over." Its Hebrew analogues, aman and emunah, literally mean the quality of standing firm, or the trust that makes one stand firm with someone. Both were not theological terms. They were used in the language in general for conditions of such trust between persons.

Jesus regularly pointed out that the causative factor in miraculous healing was the faith (read "sincere trust") in Jesus on the part of the person healed. For Paul, who was speaking to people who had not seen Jesus, his audiences still had access to the sincere trust. Thus faith becomes a cornerstone of his message. Even though Jesus is not physically present, out trust in him can still heal us. Also, since we cannot expect to be perfect enough to carry out every action required by the Law, we are instead asked to trust Jesus, with the point being that pistis is sufficient conviction to make us carry out the spirit of the Law despite insufficiency to carry out the letter of the Law. We do so because we are steadfast with the master of the Law. We are equal to the Law because of our faith, because faith acts as our allegiance to the maker of the Law. This is called by Paul "making right because of faith". We are made right (and also seek to make right) because we stand with the architect of the Right. Faith also acts like the opening of a door. It is only when we trust enough to let God in will God come in (usually! Sometimes he barges in anyways!) He doesn't come in to grant secret knowledge. That's kind of simplistic. He comes in and does just about everything anywhere we let Him. All of this is clearly described within the context of emotional attachment, not adherence to philosophical or theological maxims or laws.

Much of the "philosophical" aspects of the modern notions of faith (like "faith despite reason") do not concern attitudes about God directly, therefore they are only indirectly connected to statements in the Gospels or Epistles. Lewis arrived at his trust in Jesus through reason and imagination and considered faith and reason to be allies. He also read Greek and recognized that "faith" was a devotional/emotional concept and not a system of knowledge. Thus you get this idea of moods conflicting with faith, and faith (literally more like "steadfastness") being the antithesis of "dithering to and fro."



I think Lewis' attitude to scientists like Dawkins was pretty much "faced with this towering mountain of invincible ignorance, we pick up the odd pebble of truth and declare ourselves to be 'knowledgeable'. Armed with this pebble, we think ourselves fit to storm the heavens, and proudly declare that "all the evidence" points to God's non-existence." Part of that would be justified (he knows it takes more than just demonstrating an idea that appears to conflict with scripture in order to bring down all of religion) and part of it might be unjustified (Lewis was not a scientist, so maybe he wouldn't get all of what they were coming with). I don't remember where it was I read it now, but Lewis knew about quantum mechanics, and I think he knew that it had torn down some of the underpinnings of our belief in logic. That's a pretty big important part of the 20th Century scientific worldview.
Sentio ergo est.
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Postby Stanley Anderson » November 19th, 2007, 5:16 am

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Postby postodave » November 19th, 2007, 5:09 pm

So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Postby AllanS » November 19th, 2007, 9:47 pm

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
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Postby alecto » November 19th, 2007, 10:38 pm

I think I've heard "faithfulness" used instead of faith sometimes in order to take advantage of the adjective.
Sentio ergo est.
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