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LOVE REMOVED FROM TRUTH IS HATRED

LOVE REMOVED FROM TRUTH IS HATRED

Postby MERTONS'GHOST » February 15th, 2008, 2:55 am

LOVE REMOVED FROM TRUTH IS HATRED
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Postby Silence » February 15th, 2008, 4:08 am

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Postby Karen » February 15th, 2008, 2:06 pm

However, it's often said that the opposite of love is not hatred but indifference.
I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Silence » February 15th, 2008, 4:16 pm

{I'm almost afraid to touch the last post.} I believed something like that, until I read that the true opposite of love is fear.

The dead, selfish quality of fear gives no place for living, selfless love; it demands our immediate, undivided attention. In 1 John 4:18 it says "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." Indifference is the state of not caring, but love is much more than caring. If we could love as completely as we could fear . . ! But while you can go from indifference to love, how often do people go from loving, to indifference? Indifference is the dream of perpetual twilight.

If love is a developed divine trait, then it is plausible that its opposite would be an irrepressible instinct of the natural man. John 15:13- "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Does logic say the opposite of this would be not caring about your 'friends', or fearing to the point you willingly forget and abandon them altogether?

Peter feared, Jesus loved; who stood by indifferent? Indifference seems to be a favorite ploy of Satan, rooted in ignorance and rebellion; but when it fails, there is always fear. Does indifference even exist outside of mortality?

Love is an overflowing, spiritual, and even bodily passion; fear is a cancer of the spirit, the nemeses of love, driving it out to destroy the soul. Indifference is not even a bodily passion; perhaps it is the lack thereof. There are two kinds of hate: hatred in ignorance (fear of the unknown,) and fear of the rejected known, which leads to a more dreadful hatred (a devil's brand). Indifference is a fence-straddler, thinking these things are not important enough for attention.

What took the Spirit from Christ's disciples quickest? Indifference, or unbelief (The fear that nothing would happen)? What made Peter sink, and deny his Lord three times? I know this is a difficult and complicated concept, so please, just think about it. I'm not saying it is as simple or independent as all that (it isn't.) But opposites are not always what they seem.

[Slinks away to hide, muttering 'I've really gotten myself into it this time . . ."]
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Postby Karen » February 15th, 2008, 5:12 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Silence » February 15th, 2008, 5:47 pm

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Postby Silence » February 17th, 2008, 12:21 am

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Postby Karen » February 17th, 2008, 1:35 am

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Silence » February 17th, 2008, 5:38 am

Ah, but again this is a matter of how far the love went. Did they know God, or an illusion; what they thought or had been taught about him? Did you ever notice in the scriptures, that when it says a man 'knows' his wife, she conceives and bears children? To 'know' God is a very personal and intimate relationship. Even to the point of knowing his will, hearing his voice, and (like the prophets of old) seeing his face. And many religions and churches today are merely peddling a deluded version that gets them the least controversy, and the most converts. This is not an environment for spiritual nourishment and growth beyond the milk.

I honestly don't know for certain, but I must point out that you cannot judge the belief of one person by the act of a moment, or from the outside at all, for that matter. I know people who love the Lord so deeply they have sacrificed self time and time again for His sake; for the sake of coming to 'know' Him. But these same people have gone through times of crisis, where they couldn't even pray, or talk, or read, or hear things about Him, sometimes even for long periods. Yet they held on, and emerged stronger and closer to the Lord for the experience.

Yes, there are different levels and degrees of love and knowing. But admittedly, no one can 'know' God as completely and absolutely as Christ does; for it seems that the deeper you go, the more you are 'sunk' if you turn away. Lucifer was called 'son of the morning', that that is no mean title.

[This is a small part of why I have little patience for those who say there is only black and white (sorry, mankind is gray by nature; therefore anything they create or touch will be so), or that things are simplisticly absolute. The Complexity of Simplicity is an endless study, as broad and deep as the outer reaches of eternity.]

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EDIT: As the topic's name, I should also point out that love removed from truth turns to hatred, or that love/goodness spoiled becomes hate. But fruit cannot go bad before it gets past being a blossom. Real love, real knowledge deliberately and knowingly turned against will be incapable of simply going back to a state of 'blissful ignorance' or indifference. How deep is deep, if men no longer walk and talk with God?
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Postby rusmeister » February 17th, 2008, 9:27 am

Have to chime in with Karen. Your argument leads to 'Ah, you never loved me anyway'. Moves towards the kind of Calvinism that says most cannot be saved; only the 'elect' even have a chance. (Of course, if you're that kind of believer, it wouldn't bother you.) It would also be supported by the "Once saved, always saved' crowd who are forced to say that so-and-so was 'never really saved' anyway. That denies a sincerity the person may really have had at the time.

It helps a lot to define love. Is it an action? Or a state of being? Me, I see action written all over it. Otherwise, how could we be commanded to love?
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby Silence » February 17th, 2008, 10:23 am

Not love as an absolute, unless you are God, or Christ: we must grow in love by degrees. Love is action, and also in the Lord's case, a state of being (Matt. 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."). The present is the moment where time touches eternity, to paraphrase Lewis; so it is not so much to demean past efforts as to take into account their true standing with eternity (past, present, and future efforts after the fact; within time, the Lord judges according to both time-bound events and eternal fact); and who can do that, save it be God? (A moments weakness, a step forward on the road, or a turning away altogether? I cannot tell.)

Not that most cannot be saved, but that they must as some point actually move beyond indifference and chose to be so; and I don't quite understand what you mean by 'elect', though I think I would define it as a state anyone and everyone not only can achieve, but are encouraged to. The 'elect' were not created, but became.

I don't believe 'once saved, always saved' ('saved' is another vague term I'll have to risk interpreting) as long as you are still going through the refining process; you will only be completely 'saved' once the Lord has decreed you so, in this life or after it. Until then, we will remain a work in progress; for so long as there is a chance to salvage something, the Lord will always return to his vineyard; and like death, I believe you would have to ascend several 'levels' before you can jump and commit complete spiritual suicide with certainty (like Judas, or Cain).

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Postby MERTONS'GHOST » February 19th, 2008, 12:40 am

As far as human finite comprehension goes God is Love. Our purpose is to channel God. So God given is Love. When we begin to try and figure out what the true definition or chracteristics of love are it is humanized, made complex. God kept it simple...what is Love?...I AM. We will not understand love through philosophy, or literature, or theology. Love will only be understood when we stare deep into God, and observe what we have become for others. Humanity, designed to be objects of Love has instinctively grasped at it to obtain and explain it but have only corrupted it. Yes, it is our sinful nature that perverted Love, but bringing its explanation into the abstract ironically makes our view of Love immature. Mankind goes out with their preconcieved notions of Love...seeking to Love... and they end up hating their fellow man. If a man out of love gives freely to his companions appetite, or depravtity but he gives him what is wrong out of innocent ignorance he ends up hating him.

A man will wisk his friend to the drink...to help him forget about the hurts of a women. This is Love removed from truth. He believes he is helping his friend, but is actually hurting him. His act of Love is really Hatred
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