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True or false: the Superhero Dilemma

Is a superhero justified in lying to protect his secret identity?

Yes
9
69%
No
2
15%
Other (explain)
2
15%
 
Total votes : 13

True or false: the Superhero Dilemma

Postby Silence » February 29th, 2008, 3:33 pm

This is a spin-off for anyone interested in the psychology of Supers.

On the subject of honesty, I find myself remembering a scene from a favorite movie, Rigoletto: “I never lie. A lie is a black hole that grows deeper and deeper, getting blacker and blacker, swallowing everyone who stumbles into it. Then when all are consumed by it; friends, loved ones, family all- do you know what happens?... It turns into a great black beast, which turns on its creator, and devours him- or her." {girl: "I never lie either."} "That is good to know; trust is the best way to start a relationship.”

So, where does honesty and moral law fit into the superhero universe?

Browsing live-action superhero TV series, I've noticed the older superhero (say, the 50s Superman series and the 70s Wonder Woman) doesn't actively protect his/her identity. Outside of normal precautions, he/she even on occasion makes 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink' comments for the audience by suggesting that they and their secret identity have similarities. (And the other character reacts like this> :rolleyes:, which I find incredibly endearing.)

From there, the TV shows progressed to the 'friends start to notice and ask questions, hero pulls off something "proving" them wrong, things go back to normal' scenario. This seemed especially popular 15-20 years ago, before the writers moved on to realism: the hero eventually admits secret to significant other, and the relationship after a dramatic tug-of-war moves forward (like the early 90s Lois and Clark series).

But currently, the entire genre seemed to be caught in a psychological rut of distrust, despair, dysfunctional relationships, trying to discover, conceal, and exploit secrets . . . call me naive, but I find myself wondering how far will this go on before there is no longer a 'hero' in modern Supers. Or are we just so far gone as a culture that our fictional representatives must either adapt, or fall into irrelevance; useful only for tragic, tear-jerking deaths, like Captain America?

Can heroes even survive in our cynical day and age, where right and wrong, truth and lies are increasingly more 'relative'?

Comparing the “smile; I have a good secret” way of older heroes, content to protect the innocent while friends and family remain oblivious to the fact that this person is the best kind of hero; one who doesn't boast or take credit for it, against the new 'I have a deep, dark secret; no one can really understand' self-pitying mentality of the new generation, am I the only one unsettled?

Admittedly, it is not so much about Old and New; it is about portrayal. Real heroes are always focused on others and give their all until, like the sun, we couldn't look at them directly even if we wanted to- we just want to bask in their rays, and see by the light they shed. Against this, self-absorbed ‘superheroes’ are like a black hole- dark, mysterious, alluring to those who take a closer look, and amazingly able to suck in and destroy everyone who gets too close.

I just want to hear what you guys think, and how simple or complicated you see this issue. All rhetoric aside, I put the poll up so we can get a general feel for popular opinion.

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Postby JRosemary » February 29th, 2008, 6:30 pm

Hmmm...I'll have to give this one some thought before posting a 'real' response. But here's my initial two cents:

Batman has always been my favorite superhero. I like the old 60's show which (apart from giving us Julie Newmar as Catwoman--MEOW!) gave us a high-camp, 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' Batman who wasn't a tortured individual and who wasn't even a vigilante but an officer of the law.

Flash forward to Batman Begins, where Christian Bale--I think he's the best Bruce Wayne by far and one of the better Batmans--gives us a dark, vigilante hero with some serious issues! I love this version of Batman too.

As for the lying issue--I haven't voted yet, but who am I to judge? If it's a life-and-death matter to protect your identity, then I'd guess that the lying is justified. I wouldn't fault an American spy back during our Revolution for lying to the British...
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Postby A#minor » March 2nd, 2008, 10:53 pm

On the authority of the Bible... lying to protect yourself from evil is acceptable. The midwives of Israel lied to Pharaoh about baby boys being born in order to save the boys' lives. Exodus 1:17-20 says they lied because they "feared God," and "God dealt well with the midwives."
So under certain circumstances, lying is acceptable to God.
It would be comparable to lying to the Nazis about Jews hidden in your attic.

Are superheroes really justified in lying about their identities just to make their lives a little easier, to get out of the limelight? No.
But if they are doing it to protect loved-ones who are connected to them- then I'd say, yes.
"My brain and this world don't fit each other, and there's an end of it!" - G.K. Chesterton
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Postby postodave » March 2nd, 2008, 11:51 pm

So I drew my sword and got ready
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Postby Silence » March 3rd, 2008, 4:56 am

I agree; lying or bending the truth is acceptable at times, like if you were a protected witness or hiding from evil people. I know from experience some people are not ready to hear some things, (and would give you hell for speaking,) leaving no alternative but to tell them the closest thing to truth they will accept. Jesus never lied, but he allowed the people their misconceptions when they refused to accept the truth. And God allowed a deceiving spirit to go out among the prophets in Jeremiah's day, because they wanted to be deceived.

Self-deception and people clinging to falsehood is outside our control. And while we should always strive to know and tell the truth, if you are not supposed to tell the truth, you will have peace and justification in the concealment of it. Problems only arise when it is done for wrong or selfish reasons. Christ was unstained by the unbelief of those around him, whereas some superheroes reek with deception; lying and manipulating to protect that which may no longer be worth protecting.

A hero makes the decision to conceal his identity; but where is the line drawn? How far should it be taken, how much sacrificed? Concealing a secret because it would unnecessarily harm people is noble and good, and would reflect in the person, but when we witness not the development of nobility and goodness, but instead the guilty or shifty mentality of a criminal, that tells me there is something wrong.

We seem to be getting into the questionable superhero practice of Vigilantism. A hero is someone within his area of influence acting for the good of his fellows, often at risk of himself; a Super-hero is supposedly this in broader scope, in tights and on steroids :wink:. But Vigilantism is the deliberate pursuit of criminals and the unlawful exercising of nonexistent authority over them; in this, most definitely, the secret identity is questionably at best.

[I am feeling guilty about my tendency to write long posts; you guys have such wonderful insights, and it is a joy to read them and know you don't even need my input.]

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Postby postodave » March 3rd, 2008, 7:14 pm

So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Postby JRosemary » March 4th, 2008, 5:22 pm

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Postby Silence » March 5th, 2008, 12:11 am

I don't think anyone will deny the Dark Knight has some major issues, but calling him a psychopath is a bit harsh (I mean, what does that make the Joker?) I read recently that Batman, and not the Big Blue Boy Scout, is the kind of Übermensch (superman or overman) Nietzsche was portraying. (This in a critical review of a book I would like to read . . . 33.00?! come on, amazon!)

Anyway, here is a quick article called "" which should settle the issue. I do agree that the movie did bring out his darker side, and did an excellent job of it too.

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Postby JRosemary » March 5th, 2008, 1:34 am

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Postby Silence » March 5th, 2008, 3:29 pm

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Postby Coyote Goodfellow » March 6th, 2008, 10:10 am

"I don't care if it is wrong," said one of the moles. "I'd do it again."
"Hush, hush" said the other animals.
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Postby Silence » March 9th, 2008, 1:41 am

I am certainly not avoiding aspects of moral reality, Coyote. You are bringing up issues of a fictional reality, and judging them by the box they are contained in: but the box, and its contents, must be judged by the moral universe that made their existence possible. I am attempting to take the issues outside the box and its automatic 'suspension of disbelief (or belief)'. (The MacDonald quote was to show that removing or suspending moral reality for the sake of entertainment is a dangerous practice.)

I am sorry if my philosophical ramble was not easy to follow, but a full explanation will have to remain contained within the original text. I was partly saying we cannot judge the contents of the box by the box. We are 'fallen' from God's grace, and thus are increasingly more like amoral beasts: Where trying to be like superheroes could have helped save us, now we live vicariously through them, which encourages ruinous inaction.
And by , judging the superhero universe by its own rules is amoral.

I never meant to imply that doing the right thing is easy, or always has nice results; the scriptures make it clear it often is the hardest thing we could do, and the only good always guaranteed is that the Lord will see and reward it- in this life, or the next.

Deception is as iffy a subject as Truth. Define truth, and I will define deception in relation to truth. There were times in the scriptures, like when Abraham went into Egypt, when people were commanded by God to deceive, if not outright lie. Yes, lying or bending the truth is sometimes preferable to the alternative; but this is according to and judged by the individual case, and should not be generalized. Only the Lord can 'justify', so I think we can agree that if it is done at His command, it is justified.

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Postby Coyote Goodfellow » March 9th, 2008, 3:32 pm

"I don't care if it is wrong," said one of the moles. "I'd do it again."
"Hush, hush" said the other animals.
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Postby Silence » March 9th, 2008, 4:43 pm

That's alright; I hope I didn't seem to come down hard on you.

What I said "Where trying to be like superheroes could have helped save us, now we live vicariously through them, which encourages ruinous inaction. . . And by definition, judging the superhero universe by its own rules is amoral." I meant that when superheroes were an example, we tried to follow the example by becoming more like them. The past tense was meant to say that through the evolution of comics, as well as our own moral decline have made them nothing more than entertainment; acting on the example could have helped save us from our downward spiral in morality, but now they just make it worse by replacing action. And yes, some people have good arguments to say that idle fiction has become idol fiction, but this is beside the point.

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Postby Robert » April 2nd, 2008, 5:10 pm

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