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Living (the) Bible

Living (the) Bible

Postby Dan65802 » April 8th, 2008, 5:55 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby Karen » April 8th, 2008, 6:31 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Dan65802 » April 8th, 2008, 6:43 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby Karen » April 8th, 2008, 7:57 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby JRosemary » April 8th, 2008, 9:03 pm

Hi Dan!

I agree with Karen. I know an elderly couple who are both quite observant--and, as far as I know, both atheists. (At least the husband is--not sure about the wife.) That's a bit unusual, but it's not a contradiction. You can be an atheist or an agnostic and still be a fully observant Jew.

Judaism is much more about what you do than what you believe. There's no checklist of beliefs you have to agree on and no articles of faith. Hence we have no creed--even Maimonides couldn't quite pull off a statement of beliefs for all Jews; although he tried with his 13 Principles.

Sometimes I sit in Torah Study, quietly smiling at the vast array of viewpoints people espouse. One guy can hardly stand God and blames God for all the trouble in the world, yet there he is week after week praying in synagogue. Another guy has a very God-is-all-goodness-and-light view. One woman is a practicing Buddhist--she sees God in everything and everything in God.

And different branches of Judaism quarrel more about practice than beliefs. We can all agree on things like loving our neighbors and the importance of the Torah. We don't all agree on Shabbat observance, kashrut, egalitarianism, gay marriage, etc.

But nobody's fighting over doctrine. The only quasi-doctrinal issue I can think of between branches is how much weight to give the Talmud--and, since the Talmud is so tied to observance, even that issue is more about practice than beliefs. There's really not much doctrine to fight over.

(I should mention, too, that even your practices don't determine what synagogue you go to. Lot's of Jews who aren't Orthodox in practice nonetheless belong to Orthodox synagogues. And some members of my Conservative synagogue are quite Orthodox in practice, but quite radical in their beliefs. And, just as there are gay Catholics who won't become Episcopalians, there are gay Orthodox Jews who won't become Conservative or Reform. .)

There's also no one right way to read Scripture--Jewish tradition tends to preserve majority and minority interpretations and everything in between. In a Torah Study in any synagogue you'll hear all sorts of arguments over interpretations, textural criticism, etc.

Since ethics and observance are what's important in Judaism, rather than any articles of belief, it's hard to shock fellow members of a synagogue or even annoy them with your beliefs--or lack of them. (It is possible to get a good argument going, though--it's quite easy, actually.) I suppose the most annoying thing you could do is become a Christian. (There's still a fear of assimilation in Judaism and a distaste for the efforts of some Christians to convert everyone.) But even that won't get you kicked out of a synagogue.

(I found this out from family members and friends who, largely due to intermarriage, have been caught between the two faiths. And I hasten to add that there's never any issue with the Christian spouse or children of a Jew attending synagogue--or any gentiles attending synagogue, for that matter. The problems arise when one person tries to combine both faiths.)

But this is all just a long-winded way of saying it's perfectly possible to be agnostic--or even atheist--and still be an observant Jew. And you'll find the occassional agnostic or atheist in Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist shuls.

~Rose
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Postby Dan65802 » April 9th, 2008, 12:44 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby JRosemary » April 9th, 2008, 1:23 pm

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Postby Dan65802 » April 9th, 2008, 2:15 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby JRosemary » April 9th, 2008, 2:43 pm

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Postby JRosemary » April 9th, 2008, 4:21 pm

Ok--I'm back :smile:

Dan, you seem to be asking two questions here. The first is: Is Judaism a religion?

I'd answer absoloutely yes. It may be more than a religion--arguably, like Hinduism, it's also a civiliazation. But it isn't less than a religion.

It's a religion despite the fact that we have no creeds and despite the fact that, while we have lots of theology, we don't demand assent to any specific theological propositions. Judaism simply doesn't put the same emphasis on belief that Christianity does.

But although we don't have creeds, lots of other things bind us together: our stories about how God interacts with us (whether or not we believe the stories) our Scriptures, our traditions, etc.

(Sometimes I think all religions come down to entering into a particular story--and by story I don't mean 'untruth.' A Jew enters into the story of the people Israel and Israel's relationship with God. She identifies with that story to the point that, in some sense, she stood at Sinai and accepted the Covenant. A Christian enters into the story of Christ's death and resurrection. She identifies with that story to the point that she even partakes in that death and resurrection.)

To determine whether a person is a 'good' Jew, the question is not: "Does he believe in God and the Covenant?" The question, rather, is, "Does he fulfill the mitzvot (commandments) of the Covenant?" That's what I mean about deed being more important than creed in Judaism.

Different branches of Judaism disagree on what mitzvot he should fulfill. Everyone's on board with the 'ethical' mitzvot--like loving your neighbor--but not everyone agrees on the 'ritual' mitzvot--like observing the Sabbath and keeping kosher. (And there are further arguments over whether or not you can neatly separate ethical and ritual commandments in the first place...)

One of our commandments is to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and strength. 'Love' has numerous connotations here. While devotion can be part of it, you can also show your love for God by doing what He commanded, regardless of whether you can bring yourself to believe in God.

And that leads me to what I think your second question is: Can an observant Jew who is an atheist or agnostic be considered a religious Jew?

Judaism says yes. Again, the question isn't whether or not the Jew can bring himself to believe in God. The question is whether or not he's fulfilling God's commandments to him.
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Postby Dan65802 » April 9th, 2008, 4:41 pm

Thanks Rose. Would you say that all branches of Judaism (reformed, orthodox, etc.) would be in general agreement with your answer?

- Dan -
"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby JRosemary » April 9th, 2008, 4:47 pm

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Postby Dan65802 » April 9th, 2008, 4:51 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby JRosemary » April 9th, 2008, 9:10 pm

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Postby Stanley Anderson » April 9th, 2008, 9:45 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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