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Luther: "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has

Postby Lioba » July 11th, 2008, 9:52 pm

Last edited by Lioba on July 11th, 2008, 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lioba » July 11th, 2008, 10:20 pm

mittchelmcKain-
I do not want to interfer into your discussion with sqrt[-1], but you said - Please do not waste OUR time.
Here you speak for all of us and regarding my person you do it without my consent. Every user may express himself the way he can or likes best -I will not complain about MY loss of time . So please limit yourself to your person and those who clearly identify with your view.
I would forbid myself to use such formulations , because I see them as impolite.
And yes, that is an important point for me and no I have no intention to discuss it further. :angry:
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Postby postodave » July 11th, 2008, 11:30 pm

I'm just wondering how an observation can be observer independent without that meaning you can have an observation without an observer, surely a contradiction in terms.
So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Postby Tuke » July 11th, 2008, 11:59 pm

Luther, Calvin and Zwingli had some disagreements and variations on infant baptism.
As to Lewis, he wrote an excellent treatise on faith and reason, The Weight of Glory, based on 2 Corinthians IV.17-18: "... While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." Reason helps us understand scripture, but evidence has nothing to do with faith nor heaven (truth).
"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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Postby mitchellmckain » July 12th, 2008, 2:44 am

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Postby mitchellmckain » July 12th, 2008, 2:46 am

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Postby Lioba » July 12th, 2008, 6:58 am

MittchelmcKain:
:wink: I will not put further penitence on you.
About sqrt[-1] Others have great patience with my clumsy English and my problems to express myself , so it´s only fair if I try to be patient with them.
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Postby sqrt[-1] » July 12th, 2008, 11:15 am

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Postby hammurabi2000 » July 12th, 2008, 11:35 am

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Postby mitchellmckain » July 12th, 2008, 4:26 pm

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Postby john » July 12th, 2008, 5:14 pm

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Postby Tuke » July 12th, 2008, 5:41 pm

"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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Postby Lioba » July 12th, 2008, 9:20 pm

Thank you Tuke to bring us back to the real thing - reason and religion. Luther spoke about theology , not about apes and dinosaurs.
Maybe it can be interesting to discuss the relation between our approach to religion and the way we generally approach life, how the differnt cultures perceive the world and set things in relation to each other.
As we know, the catholic church adopted the hellenistic tradition developing from it scholasticisme. The probably best and clearest representative of it is St. Thomas Aquinas and from his teachings Thomisme evolved and is until today the official teaching of the Catholic Church.[Their was a concurrent Johannes Scotus, who was a bit more on the mystcal side and from him the School of Scotisme developed.They had a strong influence on the order of St. Franziskus] Where the Thomists strictly say that is always possible to bring together knowledge and creed through reason, the Scotists say, that some aspects of the world or Gods acting might not be explained by reason and the believer only can solve the problem by accepting the contradiction and still by an act of your will long to approach God because Love leads him so. This is called Voluntarisme, a word that is sometimes misunderstood nowadays.
Ben, I hope Igot it right- if not, please correct me.
Luther believed that scholasticisme had generally a too big influence on theology, that the whole apparatus had become bigger than the thing itself
and that theologians should first and before all take their answers directly from the scriptures-but then as I said before he would come into a dilemma , because he must have methods for exegesis and he had to relay on the well approved methods of sober and logical reasoning.
He would not refuse logic itself. The point he made concerning child-baptisme was1. that the child doesn´t need to grasp faith by reasoning- it receives the word and the sacrament -that´s crucial 2. that groups arose who tried to interprete scripture by reasoning on a rather low level the "it-stands-to-reason-stuff" that just falls short of any real grasping of the things.This reason stands again creed, it reduces faith to common sense and as it by its reduced means has no approach to the depths of christian truth.
But I can say that in some way Luther is seen especially by those who know him very well as a person who is on the one side very mediavel , -Germany at that time was rather behind the general development-clearly not on the height of the mediterranian world who was already opening to renaissance, but on the other side a person pre-formulating astonishingly modern ideas "Freiheit eines Christenmenschen" was a shock to the mediavel world.
In some way Protestantisme jumped from Middle Ages forward leaving out enaissance a great deal.
This is not perfect, I just tried my best.
Last edited by Lioba on July 12th, 2008, 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lioba » July 12th, 2008, 9:30 pm

dritterpunkt- if you are generally interested in methods of philosophical thinking ore philosophy generally and you are a real beginner I would propose Stephen Laws "Philosophy", the German title is Philosophie. I really appreciate it that at least the Duden didn´t touch this word and didn´t turn it into Filosofie. As we speak about -sofie, you have read Sofies World as a teenager?I.t doesn´t teach methods , but it is good to give a first impression.
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Postby sqrt[-1] » July 13th, 2008, 7:46 am

I see now that the last two parts of my last post were written in anger and would like to apologize and formally retract them. I will do my best to keep future posts purely informative about my opinions without attacking other people
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