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He Wore What?!

Postby archenland_knight » September 5th, 2008, 10:27 pm

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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Postby rusmeister » September 9th, 2008, 12:00 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby archenland_knight » September 15th, 2008, 10:31 pm

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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Postby Wormwood Scrubb » September 16th, 2008, 5:50 pm

I would think that strict dress codes could very easily get in the way of attracting people to your place of worship and making it acessable. I mean, not everybody actually owns a suit, and in my experience places of worship are forbiding enough without having extra worry about whether you're wearing the right thing! So I'd have to stand with the sandals and shorts brigade. :smile: Curiously, despite not having a trace of Eastern ancestry, I was brought up never to wear shoes in the house, and still often instinctively remove them when visiting other people's.
'I don't suppose you have read Lord Chesterfield's Letters to his son?'
...Well, of course I hadn't. Bertram Wooster does not read other people's letters. If I were employed in the post office, I wouldn't even read the postcards. ~ Aunts Aren't Gentlemen
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Postby rusmeister » September 17th, 2008, 1:04 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Postby Wormwood Scrubb » September 17th, 2008, 9:07 am

'I don't suppose you have read Lord Chesterfield's Letters to his son?'
...Well, of course I hadn't. Bertram Wooster does not read other people's letters. If I were employed in the post office, I wouldn't even read the postcards. ~ Aunts Aren't Gentlemen
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Postby rusmeister » September 17th, 2008, 7:53 pm

Let me try to express the point another way: why do people dress up when they go to certain events, such as funerals or weddings (and even job interviews)? For some odd reason, ordinary people make an effort to dress better than usual when they attend these events.

Why did the woman pour expensive oil on Christ rather than sell it for its tremendous value and give the money to the poor? Why did not only Christ, but Moses and Elijah as well, appear at the Transfiguration in splendour and glory, and not in tank tops and panama hats? Why did Christ need a ride to enter Jerusalem and palm leaves strewn in front of him...


A common misperception is in seeing the building as such as being the thing that rates respect and worship. Now there may be no building. Christians being persecuted might really have to meet in a basement or a field - but the point would be that they came to worship God, and that they hold that to be at least as important as a funeral, wedding or job interview. (In practice, many do not, but hopefully you understand the point - that it is about the purpose of the place, not merely the material structure. Similarly, a person in extraordinary circumstances may be unable to worship God in anything but rags - but if we speak honestly, we must admit that most of us are not in such circumstances.

Hope it doesn't seem flippant or sarcastic - I'd just really like to offer food for thought on this issue of dress, respect, honor and worship.
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Postby Wormwood Scrubb » September 18th, 2008, 8:50 am

'I don't suppose you have read Lord Chesterfield's Letters to his son?'
...Well, of course I hadn't. Bertram Wooster does not read other people's letters. If I were employed in the post office, I wouldn't even read the postcards. ~ Aunts Aren't Gentlemen
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Postby rusmeister » September 19th, 2008, 11:47 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby Wormwood Scrubb » September 20th, 2008, 10:29 am

'I don't suppose you have read Lord Chesterfield's Letters to his son?'
...Well, of course I hadn't. Bertram Wooster does not read other people's letters. If I were employed in the post office, I wouldn't even read the postcards. ~ Aunts Aren't Gentlemen
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Postby Karen » September 20th, 2008, 1:05 pm

I don't think it's so much a matter of a specific dress code, as it is the general 'casualization' (is that a word?) of our culture when it comes to how we dress. Comfort has become the overriding concern. When I was a child in the 60's and 70's, everyone got dressed up to a certain extent to go to concerts, the theater, out to dinner, etc. Even on airplanes, one got dressed up a bit (which still helps if you want to get bumped to 1st class!)

I'm not suggesting that men must wear suits and women must wear skirts or dresses everywhere. But the concept of 'casual wear' has become an excuse for complete sloppiness in many quarters. There's a difference between, say, khaki pants and a polo or button-down shirt ('business casual', which I think is fine for most occasions), and shorts and flip-flops. Or between a pair of dress pants with a nice top, and a pair of low-slung jeans and a belly-baring shirt. I'm not interested in seeing hairy toes while I eat in a restaurant, or a woman's 'muffin top' in the pew next to me. It's not just a matter of honoring God, it's also about honoring your neighbor, which is the basis of etiquette.

So 'casual' is fine...as long as it's not what you might also wear to the beach. [/old curmudgeon mode]
I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby rusmeister » September 21st, 2008, 2:33 am

Thanks Karen. I think that expresses my biggest concern. (Although I don't know what a "muffin top" is.)
I'd add that honoring your neighbor is a basis for honoring God.

On drawing attention to oneself - dressing in a way that is significantly different from that of the people you've come to worship with, supposedly as part of a corporate body: You seem to use the term "dress code" to indicate a highly specific and Pharisaical list of requirements. I've been talking about that which is normative to specific cultural understandings - ie, at a beach party, you dress down - T-shirts and shorts are normative. At a funeral, full shirts, ties and slacks (for men) are normative, etc...
It is being individualist - "non-conforming" - that is, generally speaking, out of place in corporate worship. In standing out, you are saying, "Look at me!" rather than "Look at God!"

In business , they tell you to "dress for success", and that your outer dress reflects your attitude, your inner state (what is 'in the heart'). How is this so in business, and yet not so in church?

On American vs Russian Orthodoxy - the only significant difference is a tendency to greater laxness in America regarding head coverings for women. This, in complete opposition to the Eucharist, which is dogma, falls under local cultural practices, which do vary, without any variation in dogma. That's why the Orthodox Church seems splintered if you look at an American telephone book, but in fact they are all fully united in doctrine. Personally, I do think, though, that there is a level of respect in the cultural practice, and that the American tendency is a result of the excessive individualism and feminism in the national culture - things that the Church will gradually cure you of if you let it. In both countries there are large numbers of new converts to Orthodoxy. The trouble in America, is that unlike Russia, where there was always a tradition of head coverings, there was no such tradition - it had long been abandoned by most Protestants who did have one.

And on personal conviction, I would ultimately (and cautiously) agree. It's not our business to judge others. We don't know what's going on in their lives. But when we get to that point, we realize that we don't want to be distracting others by standing out excessively - we want them to be looking at God, too, and not our bodies, butts, bosoms, fancy hats, over the top Armani suits or conversely, ragged and torn clothing. IOW, apply that "dress code" to yourself, and not to others as much as humanly possible. One example - an attractive woman with a body fitting outfit is standing right in front of you in the Confessional line (a time when there may not be any chanting/prayers going on). Turn your face to an icon and pray the Jesus prayer ("Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner") as many times as necessary. (Hopefully the woman in question will someday get a personal conviction to dress the way she ought to in church...) I'm sure you can supply appropriate Protestant examples... :smile:
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby Karen » September 21st, 2008, 2:39 am

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby rusmeister » September 21st, 2008, 8:51 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Postby Wormwood Scrubb » September 21st, 2008, 10:41 am

'I don't suppose you have read Lord Chesterfield's Letters to his son?'
...Well, of course I hadn't. Bertram Wooster does not read other people's letters. If I were employed in the post office, I wouldn't even read the postcards. ~ Aunts Aren't Gentlemen
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