A speculation meant to be conciliatory

[john]

[Lioba]

Thank you, John!

[Lioba]

[mitchellmckain]

[postodave]

I think I have something intriguing to say about Eckhard Tolle and American evangelicals. I read Tolle's book because it was recommended by my spiritual director an evangelical who had been strongly influenced by the older mystics like the writer of 'The Cloud of Unknowing' - a book that scares me off a bit though John Dalrymple helped me understand it (Dalrymple's 'Simple Prayer' is about the best book on prayer I have read). Anyway I was alarmed by the new age pantheistic aspects of it but I am convinced it has some important messages for evangelicals about living in the present moment.

A few weeks ago I was wondering about some of those sixties musicians who became Christians in the seventies and I looked up Barry McGuire on the Internet. McGuire had a protest hit in 1968 but not much of a career after that. The line in the Mamma's and Pappa's Creque Alley 'McGuinn and McGuire are still getting higher' refers to him and Roger McGuinn of the Birds. In the seventies they did a tour together as Christians called 'McGuinn and McGuire still getting higher'. Anyway I found out that McGuinn had become a bit disillusioned by some aspects of evangelicalism. For example he had donated the profits from some of his albums to charity only to find another Christian had bought them up and was keeping the money. He was looking for a more effective spirituality when he read Tolle and was blown away by him. However as time went by he felt this was losing touch with his Christian roots and that Tolle was mistaken in disregarding the cross. Then he found another book that helped him put Tolle's ideas in a Christian context that book was 'The Sacrament of the Present Moment' by Jean- Pierre de Causade. Now that was quite exciting to me as I had read both books - not all of de Causaude but I spent a weeks prayer times using him once and I do have the book now - and had not made the connection McGuire had made. Mysticism rocks!

Here's McGuire's tale

By the way Arthur Blessitt who chained himself to the cross and helped McGuire find faith with one word is the same man whose preaching brought about the conversion of Georgr Dubya Bush - weird old world!

Ben and Rus really have to stay. They are very worthy people to listen to especially when I disagree with them. Mitch you are without doubt the most annoying person on God's earth. I love you please do not think of quitting.

[mitchellmckain]

[Lioba]

[Lioba]

[mitchellmckain]

[postodave]

Mitch - I don't think I felt hostile. I felt frustrated because it seemed to me that in order to maintain your position you were denying things that are fundamental to human thought. In particular you seemed to be denying both the validity of the law of non-contradiction 'not both p and not-p' and excluded middle roughly 'either p or not-p'. I concede that you can run a fair distance without excluded middle especially in maths but as I said once you dispose of non-contradiction or even say that it only applies in some cases rational argument becomes impossible - 'from a contradiction anything follows'. But the fact remains that along the way you throw out some intriguing ideas even if frustratingly I can never be sure what you mean by them because you might just as easily mean the antithesis of what you say.

But did no one else find the spiritual journey of Barry McGuire interesting? Especially his finding common ground in Jean Pierre de Causade and Eckhard Tolle. Oh well, each to his own I suppose.

[mitchellmckain]

[postodave]

[mitchellmckain]

[postodave]

[mitchellmckain]

Anyway back to the topic of the thread.

I get into these battles with Catholics on the doctrine of the church, passionately defending the ideals of Protestantism and Evangelical Christianity and they quickly categorize me with Catholic hating fanatics because they are seeing only one side of me. But a passionate rejection of those ideas I disagree with in Catholicism is NOT the same as a hotility towards Catholics or the Catholic church. The truth is that on other fronts I am fighting with other Protestants to defend Catholicism. Here is one ongoing battle, staring in 2005 and continuing to this day where you will find my own passionate defense of Catholicism.

http://www.astahost.com/Catholicism-Vs- ... t4080.html

The OP was retracted by the author but you can see some of it quoted in responses. I join the discussion on page 3, sharing some of the same Protestant concerns. However my defense of Catholicism starts the very same year 2005 on the bottom of page 4. On page 5 I defend some of the claims of the Orthodox church, and later on the the same page quote the Catholic Catechism to call out someone trying to tell us what the Catholics believe. My role in the remainder of the thread is one of defense in reaction to the repeated attacks being made by other posters.