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The philosophy of science

Re: The philosophy of science

Postby Bluegoat » December 28th, 2008, 1:08 pm

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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby postodave » December 28th, 2008, 8:52 pm

I suppose it comes down to interpretation. I cannot see that scripture teaches that God created by miracle - but then I am not sure what you mean by miracle. My understanding of the concept of creation, and I think this is line with classical theology, is that it describes a relationship which the cosmos has to God not a process whereby the cosmos came into being. So when for example scripture tells us God created Israel we should not imagine he has any specific supernatural event in mind as a result of which Israel sprang into being from nothing.

I'm with bluegoat on not seeing any either/or here. I do not see how I can read and understand God's word without using my eyes and reason. But then I do not know exactly what you mean by reason.

As for the end of the world by miracle I am not sure which scriptures you are referring to but I would probably interpret them differently to you.
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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby AllanS » December 28th, 2008, 11:56 pm

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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby postodave » December 29th, 2008, 12:43 am

I too love that bit in the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. But you know I also love that line by Joni Mitchell where she sings 'We are stardust, we are golden' and I always thought that was just a piece of poetic fooling until I heard the live version where she adds the line 'Billion year old stardust' and then I thought wow! She's talking about the formation of heavy elements like carbon inside stars; and in those two lines in a song about a pop festival she's just mythologised big bang cosmology. But if you didn't know the science you could not feel the poetry. So I want both I want the living lights that guided the ancient sailors and the balls of flaming gas that helped make life possible.

In any case if it's the appropriate science, science can help to tell you what a poem means. Suppose the poem is written in an unknown language then a rational scientific study can decipher its meaning. And in relation to the quote from the Dawn Trader I find this ironic because the book refers back to a conversation Lewis had with Tolkien many years before which lead to Lewis perceiving the truth of myth and so becoming a Christian. Now Tolkien as a philologist would know how far science can take you in understanding poetry and of course as he points out in his essay on Beowulf the limits of this. What I am trying to say is that I try to see reason and imagination as friends.
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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby Bluegoat » December 29th, 2008, 4:53 pm

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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby postodave » December 31st, 2008, 3:53 pm

If Allan S does reply to this thread again I find I would like to ask him what he does when he is ill, especially if he has an illness for which medical science has produced what appears to be an effective cure. If I have understood his position then in order to be consistent he ought to disregard this cure and pray for a supernatural healing.
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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby Bluegoat » December 31st, 2008, 4:55 pm

That also seems to be a logical conclusion to me.
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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby AllanS » December 31st, 2008, 9:55 pm

We're creatures within a creation. When I get sick, I see a doctor (a creature skilled in manipulating certain aspects of the creation) and I pray (to the creator).

I've used this illustration many times before so forgive my repetition.

Imagine a programmer who makes a virtual world called Eden, consistent to the smallest detail. He creates an icon called Adam and links it to an artificial intelligence sitting on his hard-drive. Adam wakes in Eden and proceeds to explore. Being a clever little AI, he soon concludes that Eden is 14.5 billion years old. He decides there is no need for a Creator, and no evidence for one either.

Or suppose a programmer is interested in exploring the unfolding of a given set of initial mathematical conditions (like cellular automata: ). He lets his program run for 6 days and 6 nights on his uber-computer before examining the results. To his delight, it's generated a universe of stars, and orbiting one star, a planet, and on that planet intelligent life, a life-form which laughs at the idea of a Creator.

Both these scenarios create the illusion of time for the creature, and neither imply the creator is deceitful or malicious.

(An aside. Why is mathematics so powerful in describing the universe? Because the universe itself is a program running in the mind of God.)
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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby postodave » January 1st, 2009, 1:31 am

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But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby Bluegoat » January 1st, 2009, 3:37 pm

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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby mitchellmckain » January 1st, 2009, 8:08 pm

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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby Bluegoat » January 1st, 2009, 9:17 pm

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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby postodave » January 1st, 2009, 11:57 pm

So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby Kolbitar » January 2nd, 2009, 2:10 pm

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Re: The philosophy of science

Postby postodave » January 2nd, 2009, 4:45 pm

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But the lamb ran away with the crown
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