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Santa Claus --> God

Please choose the statement that most accurately describes you.

I was taught to believe in both Santa and God -- I believe in God.
13
45%
I was taught to believe in both Santa and God -- I either don't believe in God, I'm not sure, or I don't care.
1
3%
I was not taught to believe in Santa, but I was taught to believe in God -- I believe in God.
4
14%
I was not taught to believe in Santa, but I was taught to believe in God -- I either don't believe in God, I'm not sure, or I don't care.
0
No votes
I was not taught to believe in Santa or God -- I believe in God.
2
7%
I was not taught to believe in Santa or God -- I either don't believe in God, I'm not sure, or I don't care.
0
No votes
I was taught to believe in Santa, but not in God -- I believe in God.
3
10%
I was taught to believe in Santa, but not in God -- I either don't believe in God, I'm not sure, or I don't care.
0
No votes
Other (please explain)
6
21%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby AllanS » December 24th, 2008, 1:05 am

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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby AllanS » December 24th, 2008, 1:20 am

Last edited by AllanS on December 24th, 2008, 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby john » December 24th, 2008, 1:25 am

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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby john » December 24th, 2008, 1:26 am

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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby AllanS » December 24th, 2008, 1:48 am

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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby john » December 24th, 2008, 1:58 am

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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby AllanS » December 24th, 2008, 2:49 am

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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby JRosemary » December 24th, 2008, 3:48 am

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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby teomiriam » December 24th, 2008, 10:15 am

"Getting rid of dragons is not at all my line, but I'll do my best to think about it"" Bilbo Baggins
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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby Xara » December 24th, 2008, 11:18 am

Experience: that most brutal of teachers.
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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby postodave » December 24th, 2008, 11:31 am

I think Rose has hit on something in pointing out how benevolent Santa is. Normally the archetype of the wise old man has shadow elements - the wizard is also the trickster. John Polkinghorne talks about the parent saying to the child who weeps in the night 'it's all alright', an absurd statement given what is going on in the world; one which he translates as meaning, 'have faith in being'. Maybe it is something like this that Santa symbolizes. Of course he is only partly based on St. Nick and partly on aspects of Norse myth; Norse myth has its own darker elements as do the legends of the the saints (most of them die in horrible ways for a start but we should not forget that St. Nick's reputation for secret generosity stems from saving ladies from prostitution). Maybe Santa is okay as part of a total mythical world which includes darker elements. In this respect some of the attempts to re-imagine Santa are interesting. Tolkien has him pitted against goblins in dark caves; Raymond Briggs depicts him as a grumpy old man who doesn't enjoy his job much; miracle on 42nd Street has him as a symbol of hope in an all to cynical world and so on. So perhaps in himself Santa is an incomplete myth and perhaps in our hearts we recognize that. Now I want to suggest that this myth arose as all myths do from complex social factors. Firstly there is the Victorian and post-Victorian myth of the innocent child who has to be protected from knowing about the evils of the world - and in order to preserve the child from knowing the darker aspects of sexuality you simply make sure it does not know about sex at all, You don't let children know the dark secrets of our evolutionary past and so on. Secondly there is the need to justify the rampant consumerism and hedonism that is at the heart of the Victorian and post-Victorian Christmas. Dickens in a Christmas Carol like Yeats Fiddler of Dooney wants us to believe that the good are always the merry; it makes a pleasant change from the image of the good as sour faced joy killers but it is only a partial truth. So we need this kind old man delivering presents to reassure us that in spite of all the problems of pain and poverty and inequality enjoying stuff is okay. Anyway my speculations here are outrunning my clarity of thought - a good time to stop.
So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby postodave » December 24th, 2008, 11:46 am

So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby john » December 24th, 2008, 3:03 pm

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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby Stanley Anderson » December 24th, 2008, 3:55 pm

Anyone who has watched kids playing knows perfectly well that kids can pretend and have as much fun (or almost certainly much more) than if they think it is real. "Let's play house; you be the daddy and I'll be the mommy", or "this stick is my gun, and that one is yours -- bang! you're dead", or "let's play Narnia -- I get to be Lucy!". On the other hand, what about the "real" things? "You ARE a piano player -- now for the last time, go do your practice", or "you're not playing house, you ARE a member of this household, now go clean your room (or "go mow the grass" or whatever)"

Is there any connection between enjoyment and belief or pretending? Pretty much yes, except that it would seem to be the exact reverse of what might lead a parent to "teach" their child to "believe" in Santa. The kids love pretending probably precisely because they know it can end when they want, but they generally quickly learn to hate the "real life" roles they are made to play because that involves "real" consequences that they can't control yet (or perhaps never will be able to).

So we always "pretended" with our son about Santa in the same way that we pretended to hide and seek or pretended to have war with water balloons or pretended to go scuba diving in the bathtub or whatever else. Seems to have worked well with no traumatic revelations about non-existence to be faced somewhere down the road -- kids (and adults who haven't forgotten how) can get fully into the act of pretending and still know how to come out of it back into the "real" world, and know the difference. Lewis even talks about this process of playing or pretending somewhere (can't look it up at the moment) as a primary way that they learn and mature in the world.

So I would say that both sorts of parents, ie, those who teach absolute belief in Santa because they want the child to experience some kind of ultimate fantasy joy in their childhood, and those who "would never subject their children to a lie like Santa" because they want them to experience the "real world", are falling into the same error about who children are and what they can handle.

Let children pretend and let them know they are pretending -- they are pretty good at doing both at the same time. (I suspect Chesterton would probably say something along these lines, though of course better and more delightfully paradoxical -- I suppose one could say he would be more childlike about it? :snow-smile: )

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…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: Santa Claus --> God

Postby john » December 24th, 2008, 4:15 pm

Well said, Stanley.

I do think that there is a difference between teaching a child that the existence of Santa is real, and pretending (play-acting) that Santa is real. It's like (using your "playing house" scenario) pretending that your child is the parent and you are the child, and actually placing the expectations on your child that they fulfill real-life parental duties. I think that teaching a child that Santa isn't actually real, but that it's fun to pretend that he is as part of the Christmas celebration, is a great approach (and not one we used with my child).
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