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God's attributes

Re: God's attributes

Postby Kolbitar » 12 Feb 2009, 04:59

mitchellmckain wrote:We can see all the elements for what they are in whatever they find themselves by nuclear magnetic resonance. ...


The question is, are those elements, finding themselves in higher forms, still singles substances, or no longer single substances but properties of a higher substance?

Like dave said, water doesn't have all the properties of oxygen and hydrogen. Are all these properties and their elements then assumed to be illusion in favor of their most basic constituents elements? But then, everything we know about these most basic elements we would only know through means that are (said to be) illusory. In this case one could only be said to be sifting through illusion in order to construct an a-priori view of a world -- one he would have no way of knowing existed -- which he'd simply act as though impossibly corresponded to reality outside his mind...
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Re: God's attributes

Postby mitchellmckain » 12 Feb 2009, 07:26

Kolbitar wrote:
mitchellmckain wrote:We can see all the elements for what they are in whatever they find themselves by nuclear magnetic resonance. ...


The question is, are those elements, finding themselves in higher forms, still singles substances, or no longer single substances but properties of a higher substance?

Like dave said, water doesn't have all the properties of oxygen and hydrogen.

When hydrogen an oxygen combines to form water this is a function of their chemical properties. Their chemical potential is in fact utilized in the formation of water and so no the chemical properites of the water is not the chemical properties of the hydrogen and oxygen. Chemically they have become one unit share their electrons amongst each other. But this formation of the water does not involve their nuclei and thus their presence in the water is quite distinct in the nuclear properties of these elements. The NMR scanner ignores the chemical nature of what it looks at and only sees the nuclei which are unchanged by chemical interactions and combinations. Thus even though the oxygen and hydrogen combine to form water, the oxygen and hydrogen remain quite distinct and identifiable. The claim to the contrary is just plain nonsense.

Oxygen and hydrogen are the substances out of which water is made. Just as neutrons, protons and electrons are the substances out of which the oxygen and hydrogen are made. Just as water, proteins and fats are the substances that the body is made out of. Physical reality has structure. There are physical transformation where the substances combined cease to exist, but this is not the case in the elemental composition in chemical combinations. A solution of sodium hydroxide mixed with hydrocloric acid will produce salt water. The sodium, clorine, hydrogen and oxygen is all still there but the acid and the base are gone. 2500 years ago there was no explanation and it seemed that two substances simply combined to become something completely different. Modern science has successively explained what it observes by seeing how different things are the same substance in different forms.


Kolbitar wrote:Are all these properties and their elements then assumed to be illusion in favor of their most basic constituents elements?

No but we are no longer limited to thinking of them as simply adjectives to attach to a noun in a sentence. We can explain where these properties come from.
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Re: God's attributes

Postby Emissionary Mr.K » 30 May 2009, 02:24

The attributes of God can be divided into two categories: His ethical attributes and His a-ethical attributes. However, in the language of English, there are 2 usages for the word "God" as the Supreme Deity. One is the "person who owns the universes", and the other focuses upon His ethical attributes. In these, God has an "immutable integrity", does ever use logic, and does enjoy irony which is not biting in nature, et Cetera.
Nevertheless, there is the aspect that God, before He did establish the laws which 'govern' this corporal and the original universe, did operate under a law of abilities. In this sense, God was the first Entity to really operate under a definite truth in a definite reality. Albeit, the statement proposed merits much discusion because the actual definition, "person who owns the universes", the vaguer equivalent, "deity" (which implies that God is important to at-least one person), and the alternate definition (description) which does list His fundamental ethical attributes -- they all must be considered.
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