This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby mgton » February 4th, 2009, 3:54 am

I was thinking about this today. And keep in mind I know nothing about New Testament scholarship. From what I can tell, Mark is the earliest gospel, dated somewhere around 70 AD. Let's suppose that Mark is, instead, written ten years after Christ's death. Assuming that, how likely is it that the sayings of Jesus are accurately recorded? If ten years had passed since I was walking the shores of Galilee with Jesus, I would have a really hard time writing down exactly what Jesus said on this or that day. I think a very dramatic saying would stick with me, but all the little conversations would totally slip my mind.

I had a teacher who I recently took three classes with (about a year and a half of time), and if you asked me to write down some of the things he said ten years later, I simply couldn't do it. I can only think of maybe a page of stuff right now, and I was just in his class in December.

I've never seen this addressed in apologetics, but of course I haven't looked very hard either. Would the response be that the Gospels are inspired and so Christians can rest assured that Jesus' sayings are accurate? Or am I just wrong to assume that the Gospel writers couldn't have remembered all these subtle sayings of Jesus? Remember that I'm assuming only ten years have passed when Mark is writing his Gospel, but in reality it's probably around 30 or 40 years for Mark, and even more for the others.

:cool:
User avatar
mgton
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec 2005

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby mitchellmckain » February 4th, 2009, 10:33 am

mitchellmckain
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Jul 2007

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby Karen » February 4th, 2009, 1:45 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
User avatar
Karen
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby AllanS » February 4th, 2009, 9:00 pm

Everyone talks of oral tradition as if these people were primitive and ignorant. Perhaps they ran their businesses, kept records for taxation, and sent their orders and accounts by word of mouth too!

Jesus could read, yet he was a poor small-town carpenter who spoke with a funny accent.

That aside, I'd not be surprised to find a professional scribe or two in Jesus merry throng. Joanna was wealthy and upper-class. If she had truly believed Jesus was the messiah, wouldn't she have arranged to have someone jot things down? What could be more natural for "people of the book"?

Or after Pentecost. The 12 suddenly have 5000 to teach. That's over 400 each! And there were more the day after. Might one of these converts have been literate? Is it so utterly improbable that some bright spark might have said, "Hey! Let's write it down!"

Speaking of Joanna. An ossuary was found a few years ago inscribed "Joanna granddaughter of Theophilus High Priest". (Theophilus was High Priest from 37 to 41 AD.)

Some observations.

1) Luke writes his gospel to Most Excellent Theophilus to confirm what he'd already been taught. Taught by whom?
2) Luke (alone amongst the gospel writers) mentions Joanna. Twice. Being the wife of Herod's steward, she's upper-class and rich. She's also found with Mary and Mary, witnessing the resurrection. Luke highlights her name by placing her between the two Marys.
3) Luke (alone amongst the gospel writers) tells the story of Zechariah (a priest), and Anna and Simeon (in the Temple). (Theophilus would have known them.) He also recounts Jesus' circumcision and Mary's purification (in the Temple), and Jesus' debates as a boy (in the temple).
4) Caiaphas (Theophilus' brother-in-law) is not mentioned by name in Luke's gospel.

Here's the scenario. Joanna is a believer, a witness to the resurrection. She tells her grandfather. He wants to read an objective and orderly account of the whole affair from someone more reliable than a fisherman from Galilee. Joanna replies, "How about an educated Greek doctor?"

Luke's account to the High Priest (or ex-High Priest) would have been one of the first official Church documents, and explain why it was held in sufficient regard to have become canonical.
“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
User avatar
AllanS
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Hobart Tasmania

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby Karen » February 4th, 2009, 9:39 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
User avatar
Karen
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby mgton » February 4th, 2009, 11:50 pm

Those are good responses. I'm going to have to study up on ancient oral tradition.
User avatar
mgton
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec 2005

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby AllanS » February 5th, 2009, 2:24 am

“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

Quid and Harmony: a fund-raising project for the Fistula Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. www.smithysbook.com
User avatar
AllanS
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Hobart Tasmania

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby Karen » February 5th, 2009, 4:21 am

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
User avatar
Karen
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby archenland_knight » February 5th, 2009, 10:42 pm

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
User avatar
archenland_knight
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Obviously at a computer keyboard

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby Karen » February 5th, 2009, 11:20 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
User avatar
Karen
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby mgton » February 6th, 2009, 12:26 am

So, here are some of the arguments for the accuracy of Jesus' sayings (given the considerable passage of time):

(1) Superior memory of the ancients.
(2) Jesus' sayings were actually written down before the gospels.
(3) The disciples had to teach it, so they knew it.
(4) Divine inspiration assures the accuracy.

I think (1) is the only substantial response. If it's true, then it goes along way to helping establish Jesus' sayings as accurate. If there is evidence of (2), I want to know about it. (2) is surely possible, though. (3) really depends on (1). By itself, I don't think (3) does anything to help the case. For given (possibly) 40 years time, only the short sayings and the parables would likely be very accurate; it's hard to believe the long sermons, which are quite subtle in many ways, could be repeated time and time again without some sort of distortion. Again, if you assume (1) is true, then (3) is much better off. By itself, (4) begs the question, but perhaps a person who has had some sort of religious experience confirming that God exists and Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God could appeal to (4). I don't know; that might be a little far-fetched.

But even if the sayings of Jesus, as we know them, are not entirely accurate, that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, or that Christianity is false, or that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, or that Jesus isn't the Son of God. None of that follows. I guess what would follow is that some serious work would need to be done in establishing some sort of criteria to determine which sayings are likely to be accurate and which are not. That might be pretty difficult. But in some instances (e.g., the "palace conversation" between Jesus and Pilate [John 19:8]), I don't think it would be hard to establish the reasonableness of at least a sort of agnosticism about the accuracy of the passage.
:cool:
User avatar
mgton
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec 2005

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby Karen » February 6th, 2009, 2:36 am

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
User avatar
Karen
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby mitchellmckain » February 6th, 2009, 3:57 am

mitchellmckain
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Jul 2007

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby mgton » February 6th, 2009, 4:39 am

User avatar
mgton
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec 2005

Re: The sayings of Jesus and the dating of the Gospels

Postby mgton » February 6th, 2009, 4:42 am

User avatar
mgton
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec 2005

Next

Return to Religion, Science, and Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 16 guests

cron