Into the Wardrobe

First, that was a temperate and reasonable response, and I think you mostly understood what I was saying, though you ought to know that hubris can be used by any against any, where positions are definite and strongly defended.

Yes, I am saying that the Church is not a means, program, plan or vehicle for preventing sins or crimes of those outside, or even inside, the Church.it is [as no doubt you agree] principally a remedy for death, via theosis in Christ.

Democracy is rare, but the Fathers knew of Greek democracies, and the Byzantine system arguably had more democratic decisions within the imperial dome than most nominal democracies. I frankly do not have a whole solution to the issue of abortion. I simply refuse to join in, or ask for, or impose, punishments.

In general, i am suspicious of punishment; it seems to me that God does not literally punish - and St Isaac the Syrian, among others, agrees. That being so, shall men punish? perhaps, as a means to an end; never, as an axiomatic relation to fault. But if the end can be achieved any other way, then I submit that punishment per se is wrong and ought to be abandoned. Justice, you ask? justice insists on the criminal repudiating his crime - and it would be very good if those who had, or did, abortions repudiated this action. But does justice then insist on pain and privation for the criminal? Even raising this question puts me in the minority. I fall back on the monastic fathers, who everywhere accept the repentant, or even criminals before repentance, unreservedly; on the parables of the Kingdom, such as the prodigal or the feast where the many are called, or the direct acceptance by Christ of Zaccheus, Matthew, the Magdalene [whose sin is not necessarily sexual - might be simply the perfume trade] or any other flagrant sinner.

I'd like to throw another Orthodox voice into the mix: Rus tells me he isn't really representative of Orthodoxy but I would say if any man has a right to speak on this issue Frank does. For myself I was very involved with pro-life politics at one time but got disillusioned by the dirty way some of the Catholics chose to play. Well I was culpable as well. Let me tell you the story. It was one election time and we got asked if we would campaign in another area. As it goes our constituency was marginal and this other one was not so we had no chance of affecting the vote their. One guy who was a Roman Catholic said he would oppose late abortions but otherwise would be pro-choice. SPUC or certain Catholics in the SPUC leadership did not like this as they did not want this kind of position to become common among Catholics. So the whole campaign was pitched at this guy with pictures of babies saying these were so many weeks younger than the age he would allow abortions at. To my shame I didn't say this is wrong but joined in, persuading myself that what I was doing was right. A few months later SPUC supported the Alton Bill which would have banned late abortions and which this guy would have supported. When he said what his position was and put himself on the line he was depicted as a monster and seen as a traitor to the Church. When SPUC took the same position a few months later they called themselves 'brave'. Ideology kills.