This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

On not pronouncing the Name...

Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » 14 Feb 2009, 17:03

I can't believe I did that. I meant to say 'JRose". How did I manage that? :??: :blush: Thanks for pointing it out, Karen. I'll fix it in my last post.
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
User avatar
archenland_knight
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 771
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Obviously at a computer keyboard

Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby friendofbill » 14 Feb 2009, 18:21

Bluegoat wrote:But there are really two ideas of names; one is that they are simply a sign of a real thing; the other point of view says that each thing has a "real" name, given by God. Some people think that if we knew the real names of things, we would then have power over them. But a thing's real name would have to contain it's essence in this view, and I can hardly imagine humans grasping God's essence. So at most, I suspect it would be a sign of God's essence.


Indeed. and it has been remarkably common in human history for the latter idea to predominate. Cassirer and Langer both point out that in many cultures, not only the Hebrew, the idea that the name emcompased the entirety of what it signifies was taken for granted. To speak the name of the deity, then, would be to invoke the totality of the deity's presence, which would, of course, incinerate the speaker. Until the resurrection day, no one had enjoyed that intimacy with God that would allow the speaking of His Name except Moses and Jesus of Nazareth. It is true that the high priest was called to speak the Holy Name once a year in the Holy of Holies, but with a rope tied to his leg so that if he were indeed incinerated by the presence of God he could be pulled out of the sacred space by those who dared not enter it.

For that matter, the importance of the name is still recognized and enshrined inthe church calendar, celebrated as the festival of the Holy Name of Jesus. Again, granted, His name was not really "Jesus," which is an Englishizing of a Latinizing of a Greekizing of the Hebrew name Yeshua. Still, whatever designation we commonly use for Him is for us the "holy Name." That is why it really makes me shudder when I hear "Jesus Christ" used as a swear word or a curse.

Old ideas die hard. But it seems to me that the thrust of the ministry of Jesus was to break down the semantic barrier between the Father and us; and that this intent of His ministry was signified by the rending of the veil of the Holy of Holies at the moment of his bodily death. Thus, even granting that the Tetragrammaton was given by God as His "name," we would need to have no fear to speak it out loud: that intimacy of access was purchased for us by the One Who was the Word made flesh.

But the Name should in no case ever be spoken without humility and reverence. I do not regard the Name as being the actual "name" of the Ultimate Ground of all Being ... but I still prefer to address Him as Lord or Father, so as not to presume a status of intimacy with Him that I have, but do not deserve. He is, after all, my Lord and my God, not my "good buddy and pal."

L'Chaim
Art
friendofbill
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Florida

Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Bluegoat » 15 Feb 2009, 16:51

friendofbill wrote:
Indeed. and it has been remarkably common in human history for the latter idea to predominate. Cassirer and Langer both point out that in many cultures, not only the Hebrew, the idea that the name emcompased the entirety of what it signifies was taken for granted. To speak the name of the deity, then, would be to invoke the totality of the deity's presence, which would, of course, incinerate the speaker. Until the resurrection day, no one had enjoyed that intimacy with God that would allow the speaking of His Name except Moses and Jesus of Nazareth. It is true that the high priest was called to speak the Holy Name once a year in the Holy of Holies, but with a rope tied to his leg so that if he were indeed incinerated by the presence of God he could be pulled out of the sacred space by those who dared not enter it.


That is quite fascinating. I wonder why the rope wouldn't be incinerated too, though. I suppose God could be very exact about his effects?
Old ideas die hard. But it seems to me that the thrust of the ministry of Jesus was to break down the semantic barrier between the Father and us; and that this intent of His ministry was signified by the rending of the veil of the Holy of Holies at the moment of his bodily death. Thus, even granting that the Tetragrammaton was given by God as His "name," we would need to have no fear to speak it out loud: that intimacy of access was purchased for us by the One Who was the Word made flesh.

But the Name should in no case ever be spoken without humility and reverence. I do not regard the Name as being the actual "name" of the Ultimate Ground of all Being ... but I still prefer to address Him as Lord or Father, so as not to presume a status of intimacy with Him that I have, but do not deserve. He is, after all, my Lord and my God, not my "good buddy and pal."


Yes, that is my understanding also. I've always thought of Father being an intimate way to address God though. Along with the using of thou etc, the more intimate form of address. I think it's rather sad we've lost that familiarity in the more modern liturgies in English.
User avatar
Bluegoat
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » 20 Feb 2009, 19:52

archenland_knight wrote:JRose:

Though some of it has gone a little off topic, our conversation has been most enlightening. I typed a couple of rather long replies, but kept feeling like they went even farther off topic. I think I can some up most of what I wanted to say by simply pointing out that Christians would consider the concept of Creation "ex-nihlo" to be a Biblical concept because of passages from the New Testament, such as the first chapters of both The Gospel of John and Paul's Epistle to The Colossians.

As you say, it would be a fascinating discussion, especially since we would be approaching it from slightly different angles. But first, we both need to become fluent in Biblical Hebrew, and I'll need to learn Koine Greek.


Sorry it's taken me so long to respond--I've had a crazy couple of weeks.

Ak, as you've probably noticed, I'm not much good at staying on topic! And yeah, the Gospel of John has what some consider still another creation story. So, by that view, there are at least four in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament together: the two in Genesis, the remnants of the story about God slaying the Dragon we find in some Psalms (and Isaiah) and then the beginning of John.

I think this would be a fun subject to discuss (it's already garnered interesting comments here) even if we admit from the start that our Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek aren't up to scholarly scratch. If nothing else, we should get lots of viewpoints and, as you point out, people reading Scripture in different ways. Maybe I'll start the topic up after Shabbos tomorrow and just see where it goes...
User avatar
JRosemary
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: New Jersey

Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » 23 Feb 2009, 14:59

JRose wrote:I think this would be a fun subject to discuss (it's already garnered interesting comments here) even if we admit from the start that our Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek aren't up to scholarly scratch. If nothing else, we should get lots of viewpoints and, as you point out, people reading Scripture in different ways. Maybe I'll start the topic up after Shabbos tomorrow and just see where it goes...


I agree it could be fascinating to discuss. I just hope that no one else tries to turn it into an argument. Sharing our views for the purpose of helping others learn, while being eager to understand their views as well, is a good thing. Arguing ... I get sick of that pretty quick.
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
User avatar
archenland_knight
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 771
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Obviously at a computer keyboard

Previous

Return to Religion, Science, and Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 1 guest

cron